Any advise vs chun/makoto

I was wondering if you guys have any advise on what I can do against a really defensive chun-li. quite a bit of my punch chains doesnt work on her when she crouches, and annoying to fight against one thats just building meter and playing a defensive game so that she can hit you with that kick super.

Any of my other normals thats safe on her?
Should I go with more of a poke/throw game rather than go with blocked chains?

Against makoto… I dunno just seems like alot of my jump in attempts get counter when makoto does that one kick to the ground. and a few wrong guesses and its low kick to that quick dashing punch that she does and there goes my life. =/

Do I have any advantage vs makoto?
Or is this the match thats more in favor of makoto?

Thank you =(

Both matches are tough but you can win both of them. According to Arcadia charts (Japanese tier ranking charts) both matches are 6-4 in the other character’s favor. Meaning at most you are only disadvantaged in both matches. Not severely disadvantaged or hopeless like other characters. Luckily in 3rd Strike just being disadvantaged doesn’t mean you can’t win. Even being severely disadvantaged doesn’t mean you can’t win either. It’s just tough at that point. Even past the official matchup ratio you should be more worried about what you need to do to win than how you are statistically placed.

Not going to go into a ton of detail since it’s early in the morning and I’m just lazy. In the Chun matchup ideally you should take your time in the match. Unless you know yourself and know you’ll get an early lead just by playing auto pilot you want to get a feel for the way the Chun player is using her pokes. Chun ducks under a lot of your jab strings but you really dont need them to win vs. Chun any ways. Your c.MK is just as good as her’s minus the fact that you can’t combo into super afterwards. You can still use poke strings like c.LK>c.MK, c.LK>c.LK>c.HK, c.LK>s.MK>qcb+MK etc. Your main pokes in this match are going to be c.MK, c.LK, s.MK, f+MK and f+HK.

c.LK is just good for spacing and when close you can string into raida or qcb+MK. c.MK because it has good priority and it just works for spacing. f+HK is good because it goes under c.MK and beats out early b+HP attempts. Good for baiting one of her pokes to parry and punish. s.MK because this should be your main normal against pretty much any character as far as setting up combos. Must be parried high and hits crouching opponents. Good priority and goes into anything. Main idea is to walk up to Chun Li and option select parry and throw out s.MK or c.MK. If you parry something follow up with s.MK to whatever. f+MK will probably be your most used normal though simply because it’s tough for Chun to punish unless she has meter and it allows you to hop over her c.MK and hit her over her head. Even when parried unless you’re right next to her she has to quickly cancel c.LP to super to punish your f+MK. Which means before she has meter this is going to be a good move to get you in towards her.

You still want to try and buy time in this matchup. Get a couple hits in when you can but otherwise dont pressure unnecessarily. Jump straight up and throw kunais to bait out pokes. Especially once you get meter EX kunais are great for jumping in on her and playing mind games. Just buy time when you need to but ultimately you should be looking to get knockdowns because she’s a lot less of a threat when her butt is on the ground. You have plenty of normals that stuff out EX SBK and EX lightning legs may push you away but does crap for damage and can still be meatied out or baited and blocked. Apply pressure with kunais and poke strings and throw her just about every chance you get. She loses momentum once you get her grounded.

**Makoto **is tough not necessarily because of what she can do but how quickly one right guess of hers can end you. I mean you can poke back and forth with her and like Chun Li…she runs into problems once you knock her on the ground. It’s just you can be doing a ton of work and one mistake can either even the round or completely lose you the round. You just have to play solid and can’t be afraid of what she can do. You just have to make yourself comfortable with fighting her.

Your main pokes are going to be everything that was mentioned vs. Chun Li. I wouldn’t necessarily run LP chains on her though since she can duck under them. If you can catch her while she’s standing then go for it. Otherwise try to connect things off s.MK. I really like f+MK vs. Mak simply because it keeps you airborne without having to actually jump. Makoto wants you either laying on the ground or on your 2 feet because that gives her the best opportunity to grab you. f+MK is safe on block and even on parry unless you do it right next to her and she parries it. Dont want to over abuse this obviously since Mak is just looking for you to start telegraphing stuff and then she dashes up during the recovery and punishes you. Mix things up with other pokes as well. Just dont get grabbed is the main thing. Look to throw her if she tries to get near you since that’s the quickest thing you can do to put her on the ground and stop her from grabbing you. Use s.MK to punish blocked hayates (non EX) and combo into whatever you like. If you hit Makoto with s.MK while she is crouching you can combo into EX qcb+K for good damage and knockdown. Remember to switch to low sweeps after first 2 spin kicks or otherwise it wont combo.

Good Makoto players are usually gonna use her SA1 vs. you since that gives them more options for landing a super on you. Ibuki moves around a lot so it’s tough to get her in a good position for SA2. If they do use SA2 limit your jumps and pokes once she has a super. Stick mainly to just walking back and forth and looking to punish any mistakes she may make. She’s just waiting to jump up in the air and land that super on you so if you have to take a combo it’s better than getting supered because you jumped or threw a poke at a bad time. You can use kunais to throw off the landing of your jumps like in the Chun Li match making it tough for her to guess when you’ll land. Generally as long as Makoto doesn’t have super you should have initiative to pressure her once you knock her down. Staight up jump and coming down with kunais or j.HP is good for mind games.

If you are not going to jump make sure whatever you are going to do is quick and comes out before she can decide to karakusa you. Especially if she’s using SA2. You’re better off leaving her alone if she’s using SA2 when she’s in the corner. If she’s using SA1 try to pressure her with jump ins and some poke strings. Generally a good idea to jump straight up once she has meter. It’s tougher for her to land the super when you’re airborne and you can mix things up with air chains or kunais to bait her to throw super at an inopportune time. If you can get Mak to whiff SA1 you can pretty much take control of the match from there. Especially if you already did damage before then.

Turtle…Seriously, I like to jump on Makoto due to her moves are grabs and dashes. For Chun-li, I think you need to have a sound game in the basics to beat her : Zoning, Poking, Meaty, and most important punishing on parry.

what Deviljin said.

Thank you for such a detailed response.
I guess thats my problem, the moment chun-li gets life advantage and starts turtling and building meter, I slowly get impatient as I watch the clock drain and im being poked to death while she plays her turtling game. Sometimes when I get impatient I get parried when I attempt a jump in and gets hit with into her super.

Makoto, I dunno why but this is a match up I seriously dislike. So many matches im winning and im on the offense, I get parried and gets hit low, and she does that dashing punch thing, gets hit low again and dash punched again (or grabbed) and there goes my chance of winning. sigh

Also regarding the combo into raida. Is ending the combo into that really necessary? I dont like the fact that it send them a bit too far, I tend to prefer trying to finish comboes with EX “spinning kicks”, or end combo with sj. cancelled c.Hk > HK.

Whats the benefit of doing the raida compared to the EX spinning kicks or sj.cancelled c.HK>HK?

Thank you by the way for giving me advise.
I recently picked her up, but in my area theres quite alot of turtles and believe it or not but also a few keep away akumas. Getting in on turtles is such a pain for me (also majority of the group is also good at parrying which makes it a pain when theyre turtling).

Mmm i guess some of the benefits of raida is that they cant tech roll out of it, it does good damage without using any super meter, and its an ender that works whether the opponent is standing or crouching.

I too prefer using the spin kicks because it recovers faster than raida when it hits and youre able to continue the offensive a little more fluidly and it does a little more damage. Also is hard to punish if it gets blocked. You can use it on crouching Makoto too; you just have to hold down for the last 3 hits. On crouching chun it doesnt work, so using raida would be your best bet.

i wonder what deviljin woulda posted if he wasn’t feeling lazy.

I guess with my experiences against Makoto, zoning is everything. If you are within sweep range and are playing timid, you play directly into her hands. To avoid that, you have to make sure you don’t end up in that sweep range for too long, which allows her to dash consistently and gain ground on you. I noticed that playing a bit of runaway at times and throwing LP Kunais outside sweep range really deters people who overabuse Makoto’s double-tap dash to get in on you. This may end up frustrating the Makoto player, and they may end up jumping at you… which hopefully makes her a bit predictable to counter and easier to fight. Also, throwing out a few jabs if you accidentally end up in that sweep range (recurring theme) does hit her out of some dash attempts and throws a monkey wrench in Makoto’s ultra-aggressive plans. I think standing MK is also a good thing to do occasionally.

I learned a lot from DevilJin’s advice from the past… knock her down before she does the same to you, take advantage of her lack of anti-air once that happens (except when she has the Seichuen SA stocked, then leave her alone) and keep her guessing with high-low and jump attacks while she’s on her ass before your own momentum is stopped. Once the fight is reset, play patient… yet unpredictable at the same time.

Outrandom Makoto… that’s what DJ would say. And if you play scared because of Makoto’s crazy offense, you’ve already lost.

If there is flaws in my ways of thinking, let me know… I’m not really as good as DJ or Yeah Dood, but this strategy works for me most of the time.

It’s good to use when you don’t have meter and works for mind games as well since the opponent can’t parry the raida. Mix it up with qcb+MK and EX qcb+K and they’ll be scared to parry for a whle. It’s basically the one strong combo Ibuki always has. Once you get meter though…yeah…feel free to run EX qcb+K. Just not on Chun Li though. Chun Li when crouching is too short to get hit by it. Only use it if you can confirm she is standing. Vs. Chun you really should focus more on just comboing into qcb+MK and then use the low sweep for the knockdown since almost every time you hit her she’ll be crouching. Not to mention she can’t reverse it when she has meter.

That’s really the one thing you have to worry about with comboing into raida. It helps to confirm it because certain characters can reverse super it on block. Especially if they block it when you are right next to them. Luckily it’s not always easy to see coming and a lot of people I play against usually dont even know they can. They just turtle up and wait for an opening later.

Kunai…that was a good explanation. There are strategies you can utilize against Mak but generally if you want to win you have to play just about as nuts as she is. You’re not going to win the match turtling up in the corner. You definitely can utilize kunais in the air to help you zone as you’re throwing a few pokes here and there on the ground. It’s just all Makoto really has to do is dash forward to be right next to you again so you really wanna be ready to react with something when that happens. You can’t give Makoto time to think. Your health is too low and Makoto is too fast for that. If you nearly beat all of her poking options like Chun it’d be a bit easier but since Mak can contend with Ibuki’s pokes pretty well you have to be ready to make a move sometimes.