Hey. I’ve been going through a KOF2k2 phase lately and this game is sick so the phase will hopefully last. Im an SF freak and I love N groove in CvS2 so Im lovin this engine. Anyhow, I have a few questions about the game in general and some character specific stuff too. Ill likely ask a lot of shit so any responses are appreciated…
KOF2002 in general:
OK, to get the “tier” stuff out of the way… as far as I understand, this game’s top tier is Athena, Billy Kane, and Choi. Correct? Athena seems to be as close to broken as you can get without being broken. Iori seems very strong, too, and Yuri seems pretty overpowered as well. <shrug>
The game seems pretty balanced, but are there any dead bottom tiers that simply cant compete?
With the damage reduction, is it worth it to go into MAX mode without canceling a combo into it? Is the power of SDMs worth it? Im guessing this one is probably character dependant.
Just by opinion, who do you find to be the more “fun” characters? Like ones who can rush down or turtle exceptionally well or easily… really confuse the opponent?
Someone said to me theyd never seen a good O. Yashiro, but I love em. Any good traps to land the special or super jumping head-grab throws? And the best followups when the QCB+P move lands?
I read in another KOF thread here someone said Iori had easy traps that are near unavoidable. Can anyone elaborate? Sounds interesting >: )
Any general strategies with Vanessa? Abusable normals, combo construction ideas, etc? I learned that her close D is cancelable, which is sweet… but how to utilize this in a nasty way? Best jump ins? Im a small jump addict…
Just for my own piece of mind… when terry and the kid do the win pose like 3S’s Necro… is that a gag on Necro? Or is Necro’s pose a gag on Terry? Im guessing the former.
Athena… jk, I already own with this bitch and Im not even good at this game yet lol psycho-everything!
OK, thats good for now. Hope some of you still love this game enough to want to ramble about it. Any other thoughts and tidbits are welcome. Thanks guys!
Yes, pretty much. You can add Vanessa and Benimaru to the high tier group with Yuri and Iori (not quite with Athena, Billy and Choi though). I’d say that Angel and May Lee are the best in the game, but only if you have mastered them to the fullest…and mastering them is a near impossible task as they are just so damn hard to use to full potential.
Probably Mature…and Chin (not sure about this, it’s just he seems limited and I don’t see him in any high level competition. I think I’ve only seen one person use Chin in about 200 high level matches). People say Seth is garbage, but I think he has alot of good mixups (and I’ve seen some fairly good Seths in high level comp).
Well, going into maxmode just to try landing an SDM (or a max combo) is kind of bad. The opponent is going to know this and turtle up most likely…however, you can use this to land some throws instead (K9999’s f+D throw comes to mind, since you can actually combo his SDM from a f+D throw). There are some kind games you can play in maxmode, that involve cancelling punishable moves to safe moves (for example, wakeup with a K’ dp+C which is usually suicide, but cancel it to qcb+Bx2 just in case they happen to block it). It really depends on the character. Also, Vanessa has unblockable combos that can only be done in maxmode (using her teleport to f+C which causes guard crush, cancel to whatever).
Vanessa, Angel and May Lee are great for rushdown and mixups. I love using them, although Angel and May Lee aren’t exactly my strong characters. I find Orochi Yashiro fun to use due to his throw mindgames as well. Normal Chris is also quite fun to use, if you’re the type that uses teleport mixups to combos or side-switch throws.
I have seen alot of good Orochi yashiros. Here are two videos I have of a great Orochi Yashiro player (the other players here are also top quality):
He has alot of good mixups…hmm, let’s see. His crouch A jabs are great pokes, as well as his far B. You can get close and mash on the crouch A’s, then either run up for a throw immediately (it would require some good execution so that the throw comes out instantly), or do a far B (which seems to hit a ton of people after doing his crouch A’s, since they try to jump out). in the corner, you can do one crouch A, then either keep doing that into his far B, or immediatelly tick throw to hcf+P. If they start getting afraid of the throws and begin jumping out, just crouch C them (or jump CD which is a more vertical jumpin). After landing his hcf+P, you can do jump D, then do his stand D, f+A into whatever, just as they land…or you can do a jab to overhead throw (qcb+A)…or if they start getting afraid of the throws, just wait and react to their jump.
I’d like to know these “unavoidable” traps. I think that person just meant that you are forced to guess in order to escape…where guessing could get you hurt if he decides to do somethign else. This is the same case with Orochi Yashiro and other grapplers, there isn’t a guaranteed way to escape some of their traps.
All of her normals are cancellable (far C is cancellable on the first hit though). Her best jumpins are jump C (for crossups), or jump CD (for decent priority). I don’t use jumps often though. As for combos, here is my list:
You can mixup the combos in maxmode to pretty much whatever you want. However, for maximum damage, it’s best to repeat a few C, f+A(1), hcf+P, cancel qcf+B…then eventually end it to her qcf+B, f+A, qcb+P, to whatever (DM, dp+C optionally supercancelled).
There is more to Athena than fireball spam…mine actually does not use many fireballs unless the guy blindly jumps around (in which case, I use her backdash bug into fireball to hit them as they land).
Wow, that was pretty thorough, thanks so much! Of course it leads me to a few more thoughts…
Ive liked O. Chris since I started playing. But youve recomended regular Chris for the fun factor. Who has the better traps and stuff, do you think? I really like O.'s moves, but if non-O. is trickier maybe I need to try him out.
Im glad to hear Vanessa is so strong. She seems awesome for mixups. I need to try those combos you posted I saw some vid a few days ago where she appears to do a single combo that just about wins an entire round. Looked like an infinite of sorts, but Im guessing it might have been the sort of “loop” you described with her MAX cancels
I like Robert… are there many roberts seen in high level play?
Is Goro relatively easy to use? When the computer uses him, he is much more difficult than most AI drones. Are the auto-blocks as easy to use as the computer makes it appear?
Thanks for those O. Yashiro vids! He gets showcased, but so does Maxima and Mae lee so its cool to be exposed to those 2 being used right.
Yeah, I dont just spam fireballs w/ Athena but I know a bunch of folks do. I used her in CvS2, where she was 1/4 as powerful, and had some success. So luckily i know how to utilize her nastiness.
I guess thats it for now. Oh yeah… you know of anywhere besides gamefaqs where I can get specific character tutorials, video or written? gamefaqs has some good ones, but a very incomplete chaarcter list.
Thanks again bro!! If you play on kaillera ever, lemme know I change my handle on there all the time so if you do Ill PM my aim name or something.
Orochi Chris is rated as higher tier…he has a command throw (that is far faster than normal Chris’s), and his damage potential is far higher than normal Chris. I still prefer normal Chris though, for more traps.
Yes, the combos I have listed can lead up to 100% damage. They are also not too hard to do, as I have been able to pull them off very often in laggy matches. She also has the easiest BC activation I think (there are others that require really good timing after hitting BC, to land the next hit in the combo).
No…I don’t like Robert, he seems too limited in 2k2. They should have stuck with kof2000 Robert I think, or 98.
The CPU reacts the first frame of your inputs…If you attack first, he is going to pull out a counter almost every time. I don’t use Goro very often though.
Go to gamefaqs for movelists, but not strategies. If you want to learn how to use characters, download videos from orochinagi:
Thanks again man. Good to see a real expert willing to help some real newbs lol
This question is a little less character specific, though if the ANSWER is more character specific, then i’d say either use O. Yash’s close D as the example, or use any move you think answers the question well…
What is the deal with wake-up meaty attacks in this game? I am very used to SFIII:Third Strike, where after knocking someone down, it is usually advantageous to come in with a close up meaty attack into combo as they rise. of course, I know there are exceptions and you cant do it every time, but I tend to fight aggressively and I like to mount the pressure.
But when im playing KOF, I feel like I am constantly mistiming these attacks. Almost like, unless Im using a super fast pixie like Yuri or Athena(prob my 2 best chars, actually) there’s almost no time to do them.
For example, say I am O. Yash(the only non-CvS2 character I seem to have any skill with thus far) and I know a guy down with, say… crouch D. I would tend to run in and go for a meaty D(into f+A into hcb, f+A as a sample combo). Online I am almost never getting this D timed correctly and suffer as a result. Ditto small jump attacks(except yuri’s small jump D, i seem to be good w/ this one for some reason)
And when I am the one waking up and defending meaty attacks, my opponents seem to be able to go from running to blocking my DP much more quickly than I seem to be able to fake a meaty myself. im sure its a matter of practicing timing, but if you have any times on what to practice, it would be great.
I dunno, Im not sure if Im being clear here… if all the above made sense, please shed some light on it… and if it didnt make sense, then I guess I could generalize and ask: what are some general tips on playing aggressively and maintaining rush down control while not allowing people to nail me with random moves and DMs? Ive got it down in 3S, but die in 2K2.
Thanks again, Emil. You seem to know your shit, cant wait till you beat me up online!
At first I thought that there were some invulnerability frames for players waking up (where they could roll or attack through meaties). Howver, this doesn’t seem to apply when you do a high priority CD attack in their face. SO yeah, use those more often (like Shermie, or Kula/K’s, among others). I’ve tested Shermie’s stand CD on opponent’s wakeup. The opponent was only able to get a dp off 1/15 times, and that was because I had done it way too late. The other 14/15 times, the counterhit message occurred, meaning the CD clearly beat the dp on wakeup.
For Orochi Yashiro, I DO use his close D on their wakeup occasionally…or I jumpin with D or B. However, I wouldn’t try doing any close attacks on a grappler in that game, due to their invulernerability frames on wakeup.
If you want to sweep them on their wakeup, you’d better space it out. Yashiro’s sweep has really good range anyway. If you’re using Vanessa, it’s even better. When you sweep, cancel immediately to her qcb+P. This will end the recovery time, and even if they happen to attack through the sweep, you will usually recover first.
Against people who do random moves and DMs, I tend to just avoid those players…because they suck. Ok, every move has a counter to it, but some counters are not viable because they require a good amount of reaction time (assuming he is a reaction player), and are very risky when you do them. These “random ass players” do not care about what they are doing, and just spam random moves in hopes of hitting you, which happen to counter some things you do, but would get them killed if they missed just once. They do not attack you based on reaction. Against such players, just turtle/bait and punish accordingly.
Interesting… Im gonna comment on those 2 ideas in reverse order since I have more to say about the 2nd one(CD attacks).
As for the sweep thing… sometimes I will meaty sweep but veeeeery rarely and just as a trick up my sleeve as a low they wont expect. When i mentioned O Yash’s sweep I was just refering to one of several ways of knocking the opponent down. Though I suppose w/ grapplers, the most important knockdowns to be able to follow up aggressively are throws, huh? How do you like to maintain the pressure after a landed grab attack with O. Yash or anyone you like with a command throw?
As for the CD meaties… that’s interesting, but it makes me think… suppose you wanted to simplify your wakeup game for safety by only running in and mixing up either CD or a throw(or tick into throw since we’re assuming they are blocking to choose the throw). All for the purpose of maximum safety while still rushing in every time on knockdown… is this how you’d do achieve that?
Again, I’m not suggesting a player ONLY do that, but for the purpose of trying to figure out the engine theoretically with saftey mostly in mind… are you pretty much saying that IF YOU WERE TO GUESS CORRECTLY EVERY(or almost every) TIME, you could theoretically win by mixing up meaty CDs with throws, based on block or no block?
Because if that’s the case, a solid offense could be based on that idea. I’d never do ONLY that, or even mostly that, but Id use it to scare people into blocking… am I on the right track here?
LOl, sorry, i tend to think of these games in a very theoretical way. Hopefully you guys get what im trying to say.
In KoF, there are frames before and after landing from a jump, where you are vulnerable to attack (specifically, ground combos). This means that if you held upback to jump out of a throw you thought I’d do, but I did a close C with Clark instead, it would hit you on the ground…meaning I could ground combo you. So the general mindgame with most grapplers on wakeup is to do the following:
stand somewhat close and throw them (or you can stand somewhat far, then do a run up to instant DM, using some buffering tricks (hcb, then run up hcb+P)
jab, then do a tick throw
jab, then do a strong attack into a combo
Mixing up 2 and 3 is important. After a jab, you could do either. If the opponent tried to jump out after the jab, thinking you would throw them, the strong attack would hit them on the ground due to the vulnerability frames I discussed before. so that is the main mind game. Clark for example, can do this:
crouch A, then:
-wait, then do some sort of throw
-cancel the crouch A to f+B (decent priority command attack), then into throw
If they decided to jab or jump out right after the crouch A, and you cancelled the crouch A to f+B, it WILL hit them.
Depends on the character. There are many CD attacks that are very slow. Thus, it is better to use them on the opponent’s wakeup(such as Kim’s CD, Orochi Yashiro (although his can be used for early anti-airs). The great thing about CD attacks besides their high priority is that you can cancel them, even if you totally whiffed them. Thus, it is good to mixup your rush with CD attacks somewhat near the opponent, just in case they jumped in. If they didn’t, just cancel them to something safe (or evasive, such as shermie’s qcb+K which will hop over a fireball if someone decided to fireball you during your CD attack).
My Athena is for the most part, rushdown (and if theopponent is jumpy, I will backdash and throw fireballs when they jump). For safe rushdown, I will typically use:
-crouch B, crouch A, cancel to A psychoball or some teleport
-close D(has unusually good recovery), then far C or stand CD. This setup is quite good, since there seems to be only a frame or so after the stand D, that the opponent can do anything. Far C actually combos after a close D. stand CD is too slow to combo, but is high priority such that it will knockthem out of whatever move they decided to do immediately after your stand D (since their move will just be starting up and the stand CD is already completing). Almost always when I do this, I will see the counterhit message, and I don’t think I have ever been knocked out when doing this. Opponent might be able to roll out after close D. They do this alot, then you should probably not use the far C after it (since it isn’t cancellable), and instead use the CD and cancel it to a teleport to get away in case they rolled the close D. SO yeah, CD attacks rock
-C, f+B (totallly safe). In the corner, you can do some crazy stuff with this. C, f+B, qcb+B (mid-air B phoenix arrow). She will have a frame advantage after this, and will be a fair distance away. It seems after this, doing a crouch C can hit them if they decide to attack with anything. I cancel this crouch C to A psychoball. If they decided to roll right after my B phoenix arrow, the fireball cancel (from a crouch C whiff) hits them as they recover from the roll.
Somewhat…as I said, if you are using slow CDs on wakeup, and the opponent has a good reaction speed, he will see you didn’t do a stand CD on their wakeup, then possibly jab you if he sees you’re setting up for at throw. But if you are using a much faster CD like Shermie’s, then yes it will work…Shermie has alot of other nice CD setups. Her CD is so incredibly high priority that most people that are smart would block when they see it. It has a very wide area of effect, longer than it looks…so, you can distance yourself quite well and throw this out…in addition, you can throw this out somewhat earlier on their wakeup, whiffing (to force them to block), then cancel into her running throw (hcf+K) which would probably hit them since they were so afraid of the CD in the first place. Her stand CD also has HUGE vertical range…hits people that are very high up in their jump. The stand CD would easily knock out people who decided to jump out of Shermie’s throws. Whiffing a throw early on their wakeup (such that you hopefully recover before they get up) further increases the mindgames…or just jabbing at the air while they were in the process of waking up, then mixing it up right when they do wake up.
Eh, I stated that the slow ones work very well as meaties, but should be done really early (such as Kim’s). The priority on Kim’s stand CD is pretty crazy. YOu can also just stick this out from midscreen forcing people to jump (in which case, you should be charging down for his charge down anti-air kick).
Yes, but a good player might guard roll your CD (block, then cancel the block to a roll). In that case, the move you cancel the CD to, shouldn’t take long to execute (or should move the character far away, away from where hte opponent will be when he finishes rolling). If the move youc ancel too takes way too long to finish, he will just combo you from behind (for example, cancelling Vanessa’s stand CD to a hcf+P, will be suicidal if he guard rolls your CD). In fact, just guard rolling afte rblocking first hit of hcf+P will get her in trouble.
Doing crouch A is not totally safe (if the opponent decides to do a wakeup dp). But if you’re fighting a good player, he won’t dp in such a situation anyway, since I doubt he will have the ability to REACT to a crouch jab. If you find your opponent is someone who just repeatedly dps on wakeup, I’d just block and punish until they stop.
Edit: That Crouch A thing was just for Clark, because his crouch A is cancellable. His stand B is also cancellable, but he doesn’t have any other weak attacks that cancel.
More awesome stuff, thanks emil! I actually just saw you in anti3d but you left just as i went “Emil!!”
Its gonna take me some time to put all the stuff youve been saying into a functional game plan but i feel like i have much more data to work with. im sure ill have more questions too as time passes. On kind of silly one… when i host on kailera, how the hell do i get that dipswitch menu open to change the flash??
Here’s what ive been told: tab, dipswitch menu, change it from “arcade” to “home” then f3 reset, then shift f10. but even after changing to home, the shift f10 only makes it say “dipswicth changed.” and even wqhen i reset it AFTER that,it still doesnt bring up the menu.
grr. thanks again for all the past and future help, and cant wait to get my ass kicked by u (and u too ash2k4)
LOL its funny… i can tell shermie is awesome, but something about her hair covering her eyes annoys me haha im usually not the type to pick a character based on looks or style, but DAMN IT SHORTEN YOUR BANGS, BITCH! is O. shermie any good? seems like kind of a waste to give up the grabbing madness, as u call it
Orochi Shermie is a totally different character from normal Shermie. Orochi Shermie is generally major keepaway, with some pretty decent corner trapping lockdown in the corner. However, she is totally underused.
About dipswitching, you need to also change the machine mode to Home. I’m on now.
No way man she looks freaking hot with that hair man:wgrin: its make her mysterious and sexy man but orochi shermie is more powerful than regular omg… word can no describe how much she is much better god her qcf qcf c is a nasty aniti air and her df k in the air omg… l can’t say anymore:rolleyes:
I didnt quite get how O Shermie could work with I 1st tried her… then I faced some guy today who killed me with her. Then I started using her and even got a win vs him! So a few questions…
Ash2k4 said he liked “her df K in the air”? do u mean diagonal down forward? is that a command move? or u talkin qcf k? And what are the best setups with that?
The dude I faced comboed me with close C f+B(2 hits) then the hcb sonic boom thing. Should I be using this as my bread n Butter? After learning how good her CD is, i like doing it and canceling to a hcf P puffball thing if they block.
Emil, what do you mean by good corner trapping pressure?
Here’s the game plan I got from facing this dude…
use close puff balls mainly for keepaway… qcf qcf C any jump ins or sloppy rushes. For this reason im assuming she should be #2 or #3 on a team because she needs that qcf qcf C meter. If theyre too scared to approach, mix in far puff balls or short-running sonic booms(i know thats know what theyre called lol). mix in my usuall running around and small jumping(often times empty) like a mad man ground game lol
On wakeup mixing up CD into whatever, the above mentioned combo… anything else? Got a better game plan for her?
Also, I’ve been re-reading all the stuff in this thread you already said, emil… in particular the pressure with a running crouch jab into either combo or grab. But lemme ask ya… how do you maintain the pressure when they wont let you close enough to jab them and still be able to combo or throw them? Because you know if you jab and arent very very close, you cant always do a combo or tick, you know? Im a smalljump addict, as Ive mentioned, but I cant keep doing it for pressure because that vulnerability window before the jump is killing me.
And in a similar question, how would you modify that mixup for characters without a command throw? just run closer and jab again if they block? I like to do that but people flinch and hit me a lot of times.
Aggressiveness without dying is my goal. man, I face some K players that make it look like he gets frame adv on all his moves. Maybe its playing online, but some of these moves are hard for me to punish even when i block! lol
He meant qcf+K in the air. You can do this move off a backdash. It is an overhead.
It’s qcb+P. Use qcb+C as it has a lower chance of whiffing. But yes, I use that for my bread and butter combos with her as well (although I rarely use her, which I probably should).
Well, her CD locks you down pretty well. Once in the corner, if you can get a knockdown, setting her lightning kisses so that they are still on screen when they are waking up, allows for more lock down. Afte rthey wake up and are greated with a lightning kiss attack (I prefer you are close to them so use hcf+A), you could either followup with crouch B to qcfx2+P if the hcf+A hit, for a combo, or a crouch B, f+B, hcf+A/qcb+B/qcb+C attack string if they blocked (the qcb+C will likely whiff if they are crouchign though). You can mixup the starting crouch B, by instead doing a quick backdash to air qcf+K, among other things. You could actually set two lightning kisses(hcf+A) and they will combo (assuming the first one hit when opponent was waking up).
I actually rarely use that qcfx2+P, mainly because it’s not practical to react to things online anyway (I get hit out of anti-airs due to delay, even if I see them a mile away).
Mixup CDs (cancelled to lightning kisses), early lightning kisses into those attack strings I mentioned (or another lightning kiss), or her backdash to qcf+K are all pretty good wakeup mixups. There’s probably better stuff but I haven’t played her in a while.
Running crouch jab? That jab into a ground combo or throw with a grappler is mainly a wakeup game (or if you just happen to have gotten near the opponent).
I don’t know about that, depends on the character.
Yeah I use repeated run up crouch A or crouch B’s sometimes…or you can do a crouch B or something, then into a fast strong attack (the ones that link or almost link, such as Ryo’s crouch B to crouch C, or Iori close B to close C). This seems to hit everyone out of whatever they were trying to do after my weak normal, since there are only very few frames between those two attacks.
If you do his moves right, yes alot of them do have a frame advantage. Mainlly his sliding kicks, and his qcf+P, f+K followups.