Apoc please help if you can: ST Guile vs Vega


#1

What’s up. Pretty much no one ive talked to has any good ideas for beating Vega with Guile. Yes its a counter match, but I’d still like to know what the basic idea should be to pulling out a win once in a while.
Basic strategy can obviously involve guessing (anticipating) on a flashkick, and then going for crossups… but there has to be more to it than this.
I ask especially after hearing that Daigo pulled some wins against your Vega with Guile. Could you give any indication of how he played the match?
Also, could you give any advice about dealing with random wall dives? I dont have a consistent counter. I try to wait and flash kick if I see him get close to me, but if he crosses over my head, the claw can stuff my flash kick :(. I also try jumping strong, with some success, but it has to be done early, and if he crosses over me, again im screwed. Also, if he goes off the wall really short, then i sail through the air and land on a low rh. Is there a consistent counter to a non-set up wall dive?
This is a hard match to learn stuff about because in the US people would just switch characters to get out of the counter situation, and in Japan, there’s the soft ban.
So… help :frowning:


#2

Guile can’t win this match with Flash Kicks, you have to use multiple options for countering Vega and more control over the distance game which imo is the most important thing against Vega. For the crossup wall-dives I suggest you jump back and use Fierce or roundhouse to counter the dives, if you wanna use flash kicks try the forward/roundhouse versions they have bigger hit-boxes and better chance to hit from the back.

Another annoying aspect of Vega is his claw reach, smart ones would use them to stop the sonic booms, one option is to low forward, but if I remember correctly the fierce claw can hit you try using the jumping straight-up fierce/strong this thing does wonders as it has gr8 priority.

I really love this match :D, can’t wait for Apoc’s suggestions on this match.


#3

Hmm…I’ll try to help. I don’t know much about SSF2T, but I’ve played the not-turbo version a lot. As much as I’ve played of SSF2T (Roughly 20 minutes :P) it doesn’t seem like there’s a lot of super significant differences in the basics. So, I’ll give advice based on my knowledge of normal SSF2 stuff, and if it sucks, or is irrelevant to ST, just, uh, disregard it.

First, I guess it depends on what kinda Vega player you’re fighting against.

Against offensive players, you’ll probly see a lot of jumping attacks, or that off-the-wall stuff.

If you wanna beat his air attacks, you have to get far enough away to charge a flash kick, or you have to be above him when you jump. Getting higher than him in a jump isn’t too hard, since offensive Vega players usually swear they have ultimate air superiority :stuck_out_tongue: just jump as they’re falling. The best move for air-to-ground with Guile is Forward kick (A friend told me it was good air-to-air too, but I personally use Roundhouse kick for air-to-air). Getting above him with these kicks will usually allow you to beat out his air attacks, since all of Vega’s high priority air attacks are pointed down. :stuck_out_tongue: The only problem is, I think Vega lands before you if you do this, so you have to be ready to land and throw out crouching fierce attacks. I don’t know for sure if Crouching Fierce beats out all of Vega’s air attacks, and I’m pretty sure it doesn’t. :stuck_out_tongue: The only tip I can give for this is to try and throw the punch after Vega throws his attack, since usually the second attack has higher priority.

As for his off-the-wall stuff, you have to develop some good reflexes. If he does the punch one (Jumps off the wall and right at your face), you can Flash kick them out of it if you time it just right, but that’s pretty hard. You have to be ready to block, or if you like to be dangerous, you can try jumping back and throwing a Forward Kick at him. If he does the kick one (The common one where he flies down at you, can with be a throw move or the claw), the only thing that works more often than not (And usually works every time actually) is to jump backward and throw out a Roundhouse kick. The trick is to jump back so that you can kick him at the top of your jump, this minimizing any chance of failure. That’s about all there is to all-out offensive Vega players.

Defensive Vega players are usually much smarter. They know to use all of Vega’s basic moves, and will more likely realize that Vega is dangerous on the ground as well. Vega has a few very nice anti-air moves, so it’s too dangerous to jump at him with someone like Guile, who has generally lower air-to-ground priority than most.

What you want to do is force him to go offensive. Unfortunately, this is a bit hard, cos defensive players excersive a bit more patience normally (duh :P). Even then, the only good ways to trick Vega into coming at you are pretty dangerous.

The most obvious way to trick him is to just walk straight at him and see what he does. Most commonly, you’ll see either a Standing Fierce come your way, which you need to just block, a Crouching Roundhouse (It’s the sliding kick), which you can probly try to counter with a Roundhouse (Even if they block it, they almost always go for a jumping attack afterwards, and you should always have a Flash Kick ready for this instance, it’s the best way to beat people that jump, cos it should look like you can’t get in the Flash Kick before they land their attack. Well, almost all of the time, it can :P), or lastly, they might just respond with a normal jumping attack, which you should try and hit them out of with a Crouching Fierce.

The second way, and much less reliable, is to throw a Sonic Boom at a Medium Range. The trick is just simply getting the range right (And making sure he’s not charging an off-the-wall attack; if he is, he’s just waiting for you to throw that Sonic Boom, bad idea :P). The range should be just a little out of range for him to jump over the sonic boom and hit you, but not so far away that you can’t utilize the psychological effects of this little trick :stuck_out_tongue: The thing is, when people try to counter Fireballs with Jumping attacks and miss, they usually try to throw in something extra afterwards. Well, in this instance with Vega, he’ll go on the offensive, and in the last paragraph, I went over what he’ll probly do, and how to deal with it. :stuck_out_tongue: Just practice it. He should have to land close enough to you to try and land an attack of some sort, but to far away to throw you.

And that’s about it. The only other tips I can give you are for when you’re on the offensive with Guile, which isn’t often :stuck_out_tongue:

  1. It doesn’t happen much, but if you can floor Vega (Don’t know if there’s some kinda jargon for him, but I mean like what happens if you sweep someone, where they have to get up), you should either go for a Jumping Forward immediately (They should get up when you almost hit the ground, it should be a very deep kick), into either a throw, or a Roundhouse. Mix it up a little bit so as to make Vega have to predict you, rather than you have to predict him. Also, if you throw that Crouching Roundhouse, don’t forget about that Flash Kick. Always have that ready. Just, assume Vega is gonna try and jump over you if he blocks that Roundhouse, cos hell, he probly is. :stuck_out_tongue: Your main objective on the offensive with Guile against anyone should be to corner them.

  2. When Vega’s cornered, use the “Sonic Sweep” method, which I named as such a long time ago :stuck_out_tongue: Basically, when you’ve floored someone in the corner, throw a Sonic Boom so that Vega has to block it as he gets up (Be sure to crouch as you charge the Sonic Boom, cos if you allow him room to move forward, that makes this tactic completely useless). Afterwards… If the Sonic Boom hits them, Sweep them immediately, Vega shouldn’t get the chance to block it. If Vega blocks it, only sweep if you think he won’t block it. In the corner, Vega can probably walk up and throw you before the second hit of Guile’s sweep comes out (Though if he jumps…Flash Kick, man!). If the Sonic boom was blocked, your best bet is to just try and throw them. Then, just repeat the process until he escapes. :stuck_out_tongue:

  3. It’s a small one, but if Vega ever does his Double Backflip in the corner for any reason, just walk up and get ready to throw him. :stuck_out_tongue:


Alright, that’s about it I think. I hope that helps. :smiley: Like I said, if most of that shit is irrelevant to ST, just disregard it. :stuck_out_tongue:


#4

ummm, no offense but most of that strategy is pretty unlikely to work against a good vega player . The main reason being that a good vega will indeed play offensively, but will do so without jumping, ever, unless he just saw you throw a sonic boom. He has no reason to jump. Just uses low strong and low roundhouse to outprioritize almost everything you can do.
The main tactics I have found that are somewhat successful are:

  1. sit on your nice comfy ass. Just watch for throws, and throw very occasional fierce sonic booms. if you notice any pattern, flash kick him.
    2)use sobat kick. its the only thing ive found that can beat low strong. Basically, toss a few of these into your ass sitting.
    3)once in a while, jump straight up and hit strong as you come down. It seems to beat the slide, depending on distance, which I need to experiment more with. He can jump up and wack you though if he anticipates it or reacts fast to it, so don’t do this too much. He probably can counter this in some other way I havent seen yet…
  2. Use low forward very very occasioanlly… like if you have frame advantage for some reason
  3. if you knock him down, go for crossup combos/ticks/whatever

#5

Actually, yeah. That’s defensive Vega. a Defensive Vega will never leave the ground unless they have a good opening. That’s why, like I said, you have to trick them. :stuck_out_tongue: Smart Vega players know better than to just jump at you any time. They jump in and jump out when it’s safe.


#6

what does not jumping have to do with defensiveness?


#7

Well, I guess, by defensive, I mean just waiting for an opening to attack; or stopping attacks that come to them. Whereas offensive characters rush the other guy effectively. In my opinion, rushing with Vega is a horrible idea. The strategy you talk about that Vega does is, in my opinion, defensive. It’s never exactly a good offense to never jump, no matter who you are. I mean, shit, I play Vega a lot, and I know I would get my ass handed to me if I just walked up to people and tried to hit them. :stuck_out_tongue: So, staying on the ground more often than not, is in my opinion, defensive. I get the feeling we both agree on this but maybe the way I’m stating things is confusing. :stuck_out_tongue: I’m really sorry about that, heh.


#8

Brain: If you see the opponent walk up and he tries to poke with c. strong , you can counter that with s.jab that is of course if you have fast reactions like myself. If you are not charging for a flash kick and he does an of the wall, Jump straight up or flip back and reverse it with an air slam with strong or feirce. If he does a slide and you catch the first couple of frames of it, do a jump straight up foward kick, c.strong and feirce sonic boom. If you are going to turtle like Thomas did in this match up, then you should use old Guile instead of new Guile.

Best of luck to ya :cool:


#9

Battosai, Guile’s jab will only beat the crouching strong if Vega is very near to Guile. At or nearer to the c. strong’s full range, where the actual claw is hitting Guile, the only thing I’ve seen that consistently beats it is the sobat kick. And actually, now that I think about it… at the c. strong’s full range, I’m not sure which one of those wins. And are you suggesting that Guile should air throw Vega out of the wall dive? That’s not a very good idea. Anyone who uses Vega will stick out the claw if he sees that you’re going for a jumping attack… or he might pull his wall dive short and land in time to connect a c. roundhouse slide. And besides, I’m pretty sure that Vega’s izuna drop throw has would land over Guile’s air throw. I haven’t seen a way to consistently beat the wall dive from Guile, or from most characters, at that.

Garbage, walking up to and attacking people does work sometimes with Vega. If you’ve established the poking game with him, for example, you can sometimes just rush up and throw the guy. Don’t do this too often, as they’ll be looking for it after you do it, but it works once in a while. But with Guile, it’s generally not a bad idea to want to be fairly close to him. If you’re far away he can control the match better than you can, and you don’t want that. When you’re close, you can stuff sonic booms and the like with c. strong/jab or s. forward, and you can punish sonic booms more easily with a quick jump over them.

I’m nowhere near pro with Vega, though. I’d love to hear a good Vega’s opinion on this matchup.


#10

Thats what I just explained, you have just added more details about how close you have to be to defeat the c. strong and which, I have decided to leave out. I usually use jump back roundhouse or feirce to defeat the claw dive. Using the air throw is just a flashy thing I like to use when I feel the need to use it. I have mostly played against vega in Hyperfighting with Guile and I have air throw people out of the izuna drop (only when I see peeps trying to izuna drop me), However if you attempt air throw and your opponent knows you are attempting to counter with it,he can fly around you and hit with the tip of claw.

So are you going to correct me now Ultra David?


#11

I can see how you might airthrow in Turbo, but in Super Turbo Vega’s wall dive is considerably different. It has much more control, and therefore gives many more options, than its Turbo incarnation does. I’d be interesting in seeing if indeed Guile’s airthrow can throw Vega before Vega izuna drops Guile, if both were to press the fierce button at the same time. My guess is that Vega’s move will win, seeing as how it’s a special attack. Even if it does work, however, it’s not a smart thing to do, even occasionally, because it puts you into harm’s way when it isn’t necessary. Jump back fierce or roundhouse do seem to work sometimes against the wall dive, but they also trade sometimes and you run the risk of the Vega player blowing by you and hitting you or landing early and you landing on a roundhouse slide.


#12

Hmm…I agree David, about close-up game, but I think it’s circumstantial. Whereas Vega would almost certainly whomp on Guile in the middle of the playing field, Guile is great in corners, whether cornered or cornering, cos he’s got a great psychological game in corners.


#13

s. Jab to stuff vegas c.strong is only nessesary when vega has you in the corner, otherwise it’s not a good idea. If you do decide to stuff it, just do not be a dumb ass and throw jabs repedeatly(spelling error), because then you will be catched off guard. The timing must be precise.


#14

I am suuuuuch a punk for not noticing this. I’ll post in the morning. Just posting now to apologize. My bad.

Apoc.


#15

OMG AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGH!!! Ok, now I’m really an a**hole. I just wrote HELLA and I don’t even know wtf I hit but I deleted EVERYTHING and there is no undo option. So basically, I just lost this whole damn thing. My bad. I’ll redo it in the morning. It’s too late and I’m too pissed to do this again. But if anyone knows wtf you hit to instantly delete your post as you’re posting, let me know. I want to break those keys:P

Sorry, Brian. I put a lot of thought into that post and I just can’t do it again at this moment. I’m too frustrated. Tomorrow I’ll be over it after some rest.

I know, I suck:(

Apoc.


#16

lol that sucks. Well, of course you dont have to apologize… you’re under no obligation to give out free street fighter lessons. But anyway, I look forward to reading this thing :slight_smile: .


#17

In all honesty, I don’t remember particular matches with Daigo. I remember getting whooped by deejay in particular but, as anyone can tell you, I hella suck on console, especially when the shit is in my lap. Hella times I was getting hit while trying to pullthe stick back into normal position and most were watching the match not realizing why I was getting hit many times. That being said, I can’t fully remember him playing Guile although I’m sure he did. I was cracking some brews and tired and aside from matches that I lost, I don’t remember any of my matches in Evo that I won save for a few. So much going on that weekend, so much herb, so little sleep, heheh. It’s always like that for me. All in all, hella times I was jumping back just trying to wall-fake or charge back without crouching. Stick just moves all over the place. I’m a violent player, heheh. That being said, I couldn’t tell you anything based on playing Daigo and can only give you information based on my own personal knowledge of the match. So…take that for what you feel it’s worth.

First of all, in order to counter non-set-up wall dives, all that you would need is a jump back fierce(just play it a few times to learn when to do it) or RH(fierce is better), a “while standing” jab(meaning, from crouching, stand up at the last moment and hit jab), and a flashkick(which goes completely around in the ST version). That’s it. Put simply, only 2 types of Vega(s) will do non-set up wall climb atttacks. 1). A Vega that has zero respect for your game. 2) A Vega that doesn’t have a clue about what he’s doing. A good Vega will only go off of the wall for show to land a super. Or rather, “I” will when I have a substantial lead. I feel the match is so lopsided, when played properly, that I’ll take a perfect and let myself be drained to almost nothing trying to land a super kill before I go back to playing properly to win. I’m just ghetto like that, heheh. Properly played, Vega NEVER needs to fly vs. Guile. It’s a ground game all the way.

Now, tactics for defeating Vega with Guile include doing absolutely nothing. Anything Vega can do to gain the initiative on vitality can be seen a mile away. In other words, anything that Vega can do to cause block damage can be flashkicked on reaction. Make Vega come to you looking for an opportunity to knockdown with a flashkick or jump straight up to counter with a forward or roundhouse kick and then you’re safe to release a sonic upon landing. Once you get a safely blocked boom, Vega MUST come to you. What you’re really looking for is a knockdown. Another good time to flashkick is on reaction to a slide. It’s deceptive but, you have more time than you might think to do this. It does require some quick reflexes but it’s worth it. Vega(s) slide is a great positioning tool against Guile and if my opponent is not fast enough, I will use it all day to get into “counter” cr.strong range. At this range, NEVER throw a sonic boom. You’re asking to be hit for free. Eventually, Vega will want to throw you if there is no other way to earn the vitality initiative. A great tool that NO ONE uses nowadays is the neutral st. short into sonic boom just before he’s in range to throw. This is where you get your free fierce sonic boom of block damage. I suppose it isn’t used nowadays because of the risk involved. It requires the same skill as a standing flashkick combo. If you mistime this, you’ll have input a poorly placed hopping knee that will eat a counter. If you get this down, it’s much more dangerous for Vega to walk up(yes, block damage is a huge factor in this strategy). This is also the range where Vega will attempt to jump over you for a throw(it’s less risky than it sounds). If you perform the neutral standing short as he jumps(the sonic boom won’t come out), you can still jump out thus avoiding even minute damage from a teched throw and you’ll reset the range game.

The true goal here is to get a knockdown. Tick throws are so much more valuable nowadays than in the past because no one plays the game enough to keep up on their reverse range. Once you get a knockdown you force Vega to eat a blocked sonic boom or he’ll flip. In either case, he will be eating damage because it is easy to differentiate between which flip he does. He howls ONLY on the handspring(ppp flip). This gives you more damage than the blocked boom when you follow it in. If he blocks, you can go for a straight throw when he recovers, walk up and pause, then hit low as he tries to reverse, walk up and st. jab right as he wants to reverse and then throw(a common disruptor to reverse timing, or even go for a cross-up to force another blocked boom. As you can see, a knockdown puts the situation almost entirely into Guile’s hands. This situation, played well, can mean the entire round. You can get another knockdown as you make him attempt a reversal and then go for a tick. Then just sit there and react as Vega fumbles with desperation trying to recover that damage even if you only take it a little distance(even 15% damage for a blocked boom and a hit).

Sure, I could write a novel on the match but this is, imo, a perfect lay out that leads to victory. If the Vega sucks, just creat distance between yourselves and let booms fly when they’re safe and don’t let him jump over them. Meaning, follow it and jump straight up with RH or back with fierce. Once he eats a boom, play the reaction game with him.

It’s MUCH harder than words can describe, however. It takes practice and concentration to make this general strat work so don’t be discouraged if it doesn’t pay off in spades at first. As you play, your eye for the ranges will become better and your ability to apply the strategy will become more proficient.

If you need me to go further, Brian, let me know.

I apologize that it took me so long to get to this and I hope it helps out at least a little. Thanks for the respect as well:) It’s an honor to be called out specifically like this. Although I don’t always have the time, heheh.

l8z

P.S. There is no softban on Vega. That was a lame rumor. I’ve spoken with many of the Japanese about it. O.Sagat is the only softban…well, Gouki, I suppose, heheh.

Apoc.


#18

Thanks alot for the response dude. I’ll write more later about my thoughts on this but I’m too damn busy now :frowning: . Heh, but given that you took the time to write a long post, it’s my turn to apologize for needing time to respond to it :P.


#19

Hah, we all have lives bro:) No rush. We post when we have time. I hope it helps out.

Apoc.


#20

Ok well lets see. I think I had the right basic idea of what to do, as I posted above. I think one main thing that was killing me before was the wall dives. My inconsistency with them would randomly put me behind in health, at which point its over. I tried out your jump-back-fierce advice today, and it does seem to work (sometimes if he landed early it looked like he might be able to low rh me, but Im not sure). I think the main thing here for me is a change in philosophy about the dives. I figured if vega does a random wall dive, I should have some way of getting gauranteed damage on him. So I was doing stuff like jumping forward to try to catch him, etc… I think I realized that jumping back instead was safer, but… I didnt like the fact that he would very possibly get away unscathed. But playing it safe is definitely better, as I could see today. So thats a major help right there.
The standing short -> sonic boom thing is awesome, and it should be helpful in a lot of matchups. I never thought of doing this, even though I’ve thought of the standing short into sonic to be the main reason to pick old guile. And yet it seems new guile can do it too (sort of)! The timing is tight, but not impossible.
Hehe, I think I have a friend who would love to hear your advice now about how to beat a super patient Guile with Vega :P. I look forward to trying this out on an advanced Vega player to see what happens. Not that I know any :S. I guess the main thing for Vega to do against this is to fake a walk-up-and-throw, and then stuff your normal with something instead. That could be problematic… I guess the ball is totally in Vegas court here to work his mindgames on you… which is bad. Oh well…

PS, about the softban: I find it hard to believe that there’s absolutely nothing to this at all. I have several hours worth of Japanese ST footage. Old Sagat and Vega are the only two characters to appear exactly 0 times. Hell, Gouki even makes an appearance or two lol. So i dunno…
I can say this however: I have played in Tokyo myself… I never saw anyone choose old sagat iirc. A few people did play vega however. In fact I would say that at MORE Vega was represented perfectly well compared to any other character.
And yet in tournaments Vega seems underepresented… So fuck its hard to tell. Maybe his soft ban is “softer” than the o. sagat one. :P. Like if you pick Vega theyll make disparaging comments about your mother, but if you pick o sagat theyll give you a big wedgie. lol