Are counter jabs/pokes useless on block?


#1

Um okay, if I am blocking a combo string from the opponent, and it CLEARLY looks like their turn to attack is over, why are they still sneaking in another block string RIGHT AFTER the first one?

I dont get it, why is the hitstun and blockstun so high in this game? You can’t even counter jab, because youll just get caught in another combo string.

ABC combos can be quite dangerous, and a person can just keep doing those combo strings, dash in tech throw, or do a crossup and repeat the exact same process. I normally try to JAB back and keep them away, but it seems like even a counter lp or lk is not safe because of the hitstun/blockstun

so besides spamming DPs and auto block, is there another way out of it?


#2

It’d help if u were more specific.
What characters and blockstring are u talking about


#3

You can also use backdash or alpha counter. However, unless you’re fighting Hwoarang or Ibuki (or playing Hugo), your opponent pretty much has to leave a mashable gap somewhere or get pushed out.


#4

Back dash isnt safe on people who can read your backdash, or sometimes the opponent will try to do a crossup combo string, and if you so happen to backdash, you will get hit by their crossup attempt, and the whole nightmare process just starts over

How do you use Alpha counter?

and to answer the question above, I use Lili and Hugo. Lili gets stuffed because she has no moves that can counter, and angel knee is NOT safe because it will whiff for a mean punish if opponent is crouhing. Hugo gets stuffed badly, and it’s almost like he has no control over these attack strings.

I try jumping away, but people will seriously mash normals so much that I’ll get hit before I even jump. it’s sad really, you’re getting attacked over and over and over and theres nothing you can do.


#5

Nothing is going to work on someone who reads you. It wouldn’t be balanced otherwise. If you expect your opponent to jump in on you at cross-up range, you could dash forward, jump back LP, or in some situations, you can just walk forward.

Alpha counter is f+HP+HK while blocking something. It comes out as a different move for every character, but even the really good ones won’t necessarily save you because you have to anticipate blocking something to input it fast enough and therefore won’t be able to tech throws.


#6

Okay so it seems you’re having trouble knowing when it’s your turn. Have you tried simulating what you’re dealing with in practice mode? Sfxt has a pretty nifty practice mode.
Hugo i can’t tell you what moves are great. If frame data service me, most of his fast stuff is about five frames on start up.
For lili though i can tell you one thing, she can’t deal with pressure as well. She has to burn meter and her back dash is actually pretty good. She can get out of most situations pretty easily.
cr.lk and cr. lp are both four frames. You have two great moves that have some reach. Cr.mk is five frames. If someone does a move that’s -2 you’re at a three frame advantage. So they can’t mash anything until they recover. It has great reach and you’ll be able to do sunflower lance for a hard knock down. Also if someone does a chain combo you hit them with f.mk. That move has range and is safe for lili to use and abuse. It’s 0 frames and if you land the hit you can go into peacock jive which allots you +6 to do whatever you want afterward. Def look at your options and simulate these conditions in practice mode.
You can do the same thing with alpha counter (probably the better option once you get good at it). You can also blow up low attack frame traps with launcher. You’re lower body invincible.
Also lili does have moves that can counter. She has a counter. She even has a ex counter that counters any attack for meter and it’s 180 damage. If your opponent is not scared stupid at how much damage they just took then i dunno what else to say. Hopefully you can get your game up and figure out how to stop the tactics that seem to be befuddle you.


#7

This has always baffled me as well.


#8

what seems to be the issue? when to hit? just know that all chain attacks are not safe. The longer you go into the chain the more unsafe it becomes. Some moves have certain hitstun frames while other moves push the person far enough where you can’t punish the chain combo. if people are doing lp and lk to attack you they’re frame trapping you. Once they start using more different moves it comes down with your experience handling them. If you can’t punish it with your fastest normal then it is safe. Your character might not be able to punish it. Def also use the practice mode to simulate things that you’ve seen that have been giving you trouble.


#9

You should be able to differentiate chains/ABC/cross-rush from links and tekken chains. If you’re not able to do this, it will quickly come with more experience.

Light attacks alone are usually like +3 on block. What that means is if you try to throw a 3 frame jab after blocking one, yours will always lose to theirs because your jab is delayed by the 3 frames of blockstun. So even your fastest normal can’t be used to counter attack some characters jab pressure. When victim of jab pressure, your best options are: 1. backdash (if you have a good one) 2. use a counter/parry or evasive move like teleport/mistep. 3. Use an invincible/armored reversal. 4. Use a cross-cancel (aka alpha counter) 5. keep blocking until you see an opening, get thrown/tech a throw or until you get 1 bar of meter for option 3 or 4.

Chains ending with medium attack can be safe, but are almost always in negative frames. That basically means it’s usually safe to counter attack even if it’s likely going to get blocked, you can start your own pressure.

Chains ending with heavy attacks or launcher are always unsafe. Meaning you can punish with a full combo for free. Some characters like King have heavy normals that are special cancelable so they can still EX CADC out of an unsafe chain or continue pressure with and EX move that is +frames on block. So it’s important to know which characters can and can’t do this kind of thing.

Links are usually safe on block and can potentially be canceled into special moves. People use links to hit confirm into a launcher or a special tag cancel/super. When you are blocking links, you should wait and keep an eye out for a few things: 1. The special move at the end of the string. This usually marks the end or at least a pause in their pressure where you can probably counter attack or at least backdash/jump. 2. CADC. Instead of ending a link into a special they might charge attack dash cancel into more pressure or throw. If you see one and have good enough reaction you should mash jab to punish or be ready to crouch tech. 3. Gaps between strings. If you notice the opponent is leaving small gaps or waking forward between his pressure, that means he’s trying to frame trap you (making you think it’s safe to respond to get a counter hit on you). Mashing reversal is good way to let your opponent know he can’t frame trap you so easily (seriously, that’s why scrubs are impossible to frame trap, because they’re always mashing that DP).

Tekken chains are unique special chains that varies from character to character. Some are safe, some are special cancelable. But they’re basically like links since they’re used to hit confirm.

Just wanted to point out that not a single option is safe if your opponent can read you. Stop thinking like that.

If your opponent often reads your backdashes then it’s not because backdash is a bad or unsafe option, it’s because you are too predictable and always backdash whenever you are in trouble. Same goes for teleports, counters, reversals, projectiles, jumping etc. If you keep doing the same thing over and over again you shouldn’t be wondering why you get blown up for it. Smart players will notice your patterns and adapt to them. So don’t give them patterns to begin with and you won’t get read so easily.


#10

This is so very true. I’m really working to fix that about my game - I can get really predictable/patterned.


#11

I think it’s something everyone always has to work on. Sometimes we don’t realize it until we watch ourselves play. Sometimes we’re only predictable in certain situations, certain ranges or in specific matchups. I know I still get predictable sometimes and I realize it mid-match. Then I try to mix it up a little. (There’s nothing more important than mixing up everything you do. Defensively and offensively.)

[LEFT]But sometimes it can actually be good to be repetitive or falsely predictable. For example you can pretend you have a bad habit and give your opponent the illusion that he can exploit a potential weakness or repetitive pattern and then counter his anticipation move.[/LEFT]


#12

I will explain in short simple terms the concept of frame advantage.

Frame advantage is the amount of time your opponent has control of their character while you do not. When you block a jab, typically your opponent recovers from his attack about one to three frames faster than you recover from the block stun incurred by the jab. When you see someone refer to attack as “+3” or “-2”, this is what they mean.

It is extremely important if you want to be good at fighting games to know how much frame advantage most attacks yield. Study the frame data of characters and particular attacks that give you trouble, and react accordingly. Do not press buttons as a means to defend yourself without knowing why you’re pressing the button or what timing is necessary. Doing this will introduce you to the concept of being repeatedly frame-trapped for free.

Your defensive options while under pressure depend on the matchup. However, one defensive maneuver that is an absolute must is PATIENCE. You do NOT have to be constantly pressing buttons or mashing something. Blocking is an extremely undervalued skill, yet one of the most important in most fighting games.

That said, in any given situation, here are your defensive options. The risk/reward of each depends on the situation.

Backdash
Reversal
Block
Crouch-tech

Notice “MASH ON JAB” is not one of them.
Also notice “HOLD UP/BACK” is not one of them either.


#13

Not trying to put you on blast, but jumping is a legit defensive option. Even if you get hit out of the air you don’t eat a combo since you get reset without CH so it’s often worth the risk.

You should rewatch some of the matches I had with you, King D and Ryan Hunter. You guys often got blown up because I managed to neutral jump during your pressure gaps and get a full combo on you. :slight_smile: Neutral jumping > frame traps, throws/command throws, tekken strings and overheads. Just saying…


#14

Neutral jump is a legit tactic. some character such as lili have air tekken chains which can fuck you up because if you don’t know she has it you expect to block the first hit but end up getting frame trapped by the second hit or eating into a one meter 40%+ combo.

Also wanted to comment on Vulcan Hades tips he was giving players who seem to have an issue with jab pressure and knowing when to hit. Don’t forget some of these. You also might wanna add launcher. All lows get blown up by launcher for free. If you read a low you should launcher. doesn’t matter if you’re in a frame trap. You’ll fully invincible from the leg down and in some cases you can double launcher to get back your point character to mount your own offense and dash in and take space away from them. i am known for doing this a lot because i want you to know that i’m not going to let you just sit there and frame trap me for free. of course it is a risky option but one that is pretty much under utilized.


#15

Any defensive strategy that relies on your opponent making a mistake in timing or execution is not something that should be considered a go-to option. A good example is the ever prevalent lag tactic used by many a scrub to the effect of mashing a second LP SRK after whiffing the first one with the hope that the opponent is too slow to punish the first. The second most prevalent example is holding up in the hope your opponent mistimes part of their block string as a means to escape or reverse momentum.

A common misconception among new players (not addressed to you, Hades) is that jumping is a zero frame or “instant” action. It is not. You should think of jumping in the same way as pressing a button when it comes to defensive use. I’m not sure of the exact data with regard to jump frames in SFxT, but I believe it is approximately 4 frames before you are considered airborne. By holding up during a block string, you’re more or less mashing on a 4-5 frame button that won’t do any damage by itself.

Here’s an illustration for you. In mutual neutral states, if one character attacks with a 3 frame normal at the exact time his/her opponent begins to execute a jump, the jumping character will be hit by the attack and remain grounded.

In practice, say you have just blocked an HK Tsumuji from Ibuki. This attack is +/-0 on block. If you attempt to neutral jump, you are relying on me first to mistime the inevitable st. LP just for an opportunity to get into the air so you can hope that I don’t react quickly enough and AA you into a full combo.

That’s two mistakes you are crossing your fingers hoping I make for a meager opportunity to reverse momentum, when you could have taken a much smaller risk by backdashing or simply blocking.

This entire scenario is illustrated in the context of being under pressure without even being at a disadvantage. Attempting to jump while your opponent has advantage is obviously even worse of an option.

There are times when neutral jumping as a reaction to an attack you anticipate from your opponent can be considered a valid strategy. For example, if you think your opponent will yield their advantage in favor of a trap of some sort involving a slowly recovering move, by all means, neutral jump and punish it. The tactic I am disparaging here is the concept of mindlessly pointing your joystick in the up direction during a block string hoping your opponent fucks up. To be perfectly clear, against some characters, it is almost never worth the risk to go into the air within AA range as a defensive tactic unless they are being extremely predictable.

I’ll give another example to illustrate a time where defensive neutral jumping could be considered somewhat of good, although not necessarily optimal, idea. A common offensive tactic for Steve players is to use some means of garnering advantage, and at some point back up a bit then come back in with f. MP as a way to catch crouch techs and other assorted button pressing. If your Steve buddy is becoming too predictable with this, neutral jumping is an excellent way to punish it.

I don’t doubt that neutral jumping may have worked a time or two against me and Ryan over XBL. I also don’t doubt that there isn’t a single person who hasn’t fallen for that LP DP bullshit online at least once either, but it’s not something you should make a habit of.

Rest assured, the next time you hold up during an Ibuki block string you won’t want to do it again. >:3


#16

Nah I’m not “hoping my opponent will mistime their blockstring” lol. And I’m not sure why you’re talking about “holding up on the joystick while blocking”. I don’t recall saying that was a good idea. I only said neutral jumping was a legit defensive option.

I understand what you’re saying but here’s the reality: if you pressure me with blockstrings you don’t do anything. I just hold down+back and you’re done. If you really want to open me up you eventually have to either go for a 7 frame throw, walk up and frame trap or use a 20 frames overhead. And that’s when you get blown up. Because you realize you’re not achieving anything with your “fancy blockstring pressure” and try to mix things up a bit. That’s when I neutral jump and get a full combo on you, because I KNOW you want to “open me up”. I can see it.

It’s a read or a reaction to something I see (a gap, forward walk, CADC or another hint like life lead, time on the clock etc.). If I guess wrong I get hit out of the air and maybe eat 30-60 damage, if I guess right you eat 478 damage. I’m not holding up, I’m reading your intentions son. :slight_smile:

Don’t worry man, I’ll still blow you up with neutral jumps and you won’t understand why. :slight_smile: And the next time you try to block or backdash with Ibuki you’re going to wish you had neutral jumped instead. :rolleyes:


#17

Jumping shows one of two things. fear and desperation. You see most people on streams begin to jump when they feel they have no other option to do damage and catch up when they are not in the life lead. In some cases jumping works because the pressure of trying to hold the lead also overcomes a person, of course this is a totally different thing. On the subject of the neutral jump. Yeah you’re taking a gamble. If you get hit it’s your fault. If you don’t and manage to turn the tide. In terms of sfxt character such as Juri herself has a jump cancel that can be a neutral jump or a cross up. In vulcan’s case he’s causing additional pressure to you. When you’re on the defensive on the other hand you have to make a read. If you’re opponent does jump in and grab you have two options. Back dash or neutral jump for a punish. Of course this is all the yomi that is being played by both characters. In the scheme of things sfxt is forgives mistakes at first. As the match progresses mistakes can lead to huge damage or even death.

Some characters do have a better time dealing with neutral jump. My character lili has a IA dive kick which not only comes out slowly but is +8 on block so i immediately turn it in my favor. But again this all comes down to your match up knowledge. If Ibuki for example does a frame trap i have to respect it because she’s plus. But if i know she is doing something i can punish i will have seen or practiced a counter set up. <=== this is another thing all players should consider when going into a match up. You just don’t neutral jump on certain character such as shotos or anyone who can dp, or counter you. You’re just asking for a mix up. Also be sure to look at the “fart cloud” the character does when they jump. Super jumps will also mess you up as you’re a bit higher in the air. Just a tad but enough to mix someone up. If the fart cloud is small you have a normal jump and if it’s bigger it’s a super jump. All things considered a player will make a call on the fly, sometimes you have to just do what you think is the best call atm. Sometimes its bad, but that’s why you go back and look at it in replay. <=== also important. Look for things you didn’t do that you know would work if you had that chance. Sometimes you’ll have dejavu of a set up that once blew you up but instead you’re blowing it up.
oh and ps…don’t back dash on lili ever. If you do she get a free combo on you. I’m not kidding. You get a free 30% combo if you back dash and she tags you. There is no back dash, to my knowledge, in the game that can escape peacock jive.


#18

There are times when neutral jumping as a reaction to an attack you anticipate from your opponent can be considered a valid strategy. For example, if you think your opponent will yield their advantage in favor of a trap of some sort involving a slowly recovering move, by all means, neutral jump and punish it. The tactic I am disparaging here is the concept of mindlessly pointing your joystick in the up direction during a block string hoping your opponent fucks up. To be perfectly clear, against some characters, it is almost never worth the risk to go into the air within AA range as a defensive tactic unless they are being extremely predictable.

  • I’ll give another example to illustrate a time where defensive neutral jumping could be considered somewhat of good, although not necessarily optimal, idea. A common offensive tactic for Steve players is to use some means of garnering advantage, and at some point back up a bit then come back in with f. MP as a way to catch crouch techs and other assorted button pressing. If your Steve buddy is becoming too predictable with this, neutral jumping is an excellent way to punish it.*

I think you missed this part. =x

Yes, if I am being predictable with something slow like Ibuki’s f. MK, neutral jumping it is legit. Most of that post wasn’t really directed at you. I’m not talking about neutral jumping as a way to punish certain attacks; I’m talking about holding up during block strings. Even still, the tactic of neutral jumping in the attempt to read and punish a slow attack is, in this case, just as risky as mashing a reversal. If you’re baited, you eat a full combo, and you’re taking that risk without knowledge of any reward. At least when you mash a DP, you can tag and run cancel your incoming character if it’s blocked.

In response though to not achieving anything with my “fancy block string pressure”, I think you neglect the ridiculous amount of meter I gain from making you block that fancy shit for a long time.

But yeah, I wasn’t trying to disrespect you. Just trying to make sure any new players reading this thread don’t get the wrong idea about holding up for no reason.
**


#19

Excuse me, but, I do not back dash consecutively every time I am on wakeup. That is not my primary tool of escaping frame trap / crossup pressure. I only back dash once or twice during a game, however, since every fighting game is on grounds with Rock Paper Scissors, what ultimately happens, is NOT that I back dash too much and become predictable. You wanna know what happens? What happens is I fall under pressure and try to escape using back dash, and SOMETIMES it works, and SOMETIMES it doesn’t. And that is what makes it unsafe. You’re assumption of me having predictably bad habits is not true.

So just keep in mind, sometimes your opponent is “guess reading,” or they are playing blindly and they will still punish back dash, even without the thought in their mind that they were expecting a back dash. So, take that into account…

I heard a guy above who said doing a neutral jump or jump away lp/lk is safe. Is this really safe? I gotta give it a try, but usually my opponent would stuff out my neutral jumps / jump aways with their silly jabs or frame traps.


#20

Vulcan was just trying to give you some help man. Take it with a grain a salt and don’t take it too personal. Its not like he’s flat out saying you suck or attacking you. After all the whole post you created was intended in helping you out and that’s what he did. So what else did he have to go on besides you telling us you weren’t sure of your options. He gave them too you.