Are easy fighters a good thing or bad thing?


#1

<font face=“Arial, Verdana” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: normal;”>While playing Breaker’s Revenge it occurred to me that having a really easy fighter to get into may be a bridge between casual and hardcore players. Breaker’s Revenge is very easy to get into BUT it doesn’t cater to bad players with input shortcuts or comeback mechanics. No Xfactor, no Ultras, no easy Reversals, no FADC to safety, and no Pandora. There are Guard Cancels/Reversals (I.E. Breakering) but it takes some significant skill to pull off and you can be easily baited. </span></font><div><font face=“Arial, Verdana” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: normal;”><br></span></font></div><div><font face=“Arial, Verdana” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: normal;”>But if the game is super easy to get into, is it a positive or negative thing if all that’s left is the meta game? </span></font></div><div><font face=“Arial, Verdana” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: normal;”><br></span></font></div><div><font face=“Arial, Verdana” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: normal;”>Final thought: Breaker’s Revenge should be the game Capcom/Dimps/Niitsuma should copy if they want to bring more casuals into their games. </span></font></div>


#2

It’s a great thing.<br><br>Reducing overcomplexity in number of mechanics, resources to manage, and physical exception/timing can only benefit a game.<br>


#3

depends on what easy means.<div><br></div><div>is ST easy?  3s?  Marvel 3?</div>


#4

I wouldn’t call any of them easy.<br>


#5

I think ST is pretty easy to get into.  3s doesn’t have a huge initial barrier either.


#6

Most games are easy to play. Most games are also hard to excel at. So what’s your question exactly?<br>


#7

Persona 4 Arena did a decent job of keeping the game simple without completely ruining it.  That said, I do think P4A went a bit too far with this, to the game’s detriment.<br><br>As someone who has mostly played Guilty Gear for 5 or 6 years I can definitely appreciate a game being less difficult, but if you go too far your game can definitely start to suffer<br>


#8

<blockquote class=“UserQuote”>
<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/4806/tataki">tataki</a> wrote: <a href="/discussion/comment/8014481#Comment_8014481" class=“QuoteLink”><span class=“ArrowLink”>»</span></a></div>
<div class=“QuoteText”>Most games are easy to play. Most games are also hard to excel at. So what’s your question exactly?</div>
</blockquote>
Honestly, you’d have to play Breaker’s Revenge to get what I’m saying. P4A is another good example. 


#9

<font face=“Arial, Verdana” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: normal;”>Accessibility is good. Low skill cap and comeback mechanics are bad.</span></font>


#10

<br><blockquote class=“Quote”>
<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/20911/Louiscipher">Louiscipher</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”><font face=“Arial, Verdana” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: normal;”>While playing Breaker’s Revenge it occurred to me that having a really easy fighter to get into may be a bridge between casual and hardcore players. Breaker’s Revenge is very easy to get into BUT it doesn’t cater to bad players with input shortcuts or comeback mechanics. No Xfactor, no Ultras, no easy Reversals, no FADC to safety, and no Pandora. There are Guard Cancels/Reversals (I.E. Breakering) but it takes some significant skill to pull off and you can be easily baited. </span></font><div><font face=“Arial, Verdana” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: normal;”><br></span></font></div><div><font face=“Arial, Verdana” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: normal;”>But if the game is super easy to get into, is it a positive or negative thing if all that’s left is the meta game? </span></font></div><div><font face=“Arial, Verdana” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: normal;”><br></span></font></div><div><font face=“Arial, Verdana” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: normal;”>Final thought: Breaker’s Revenge should be the game Capcom/Dimps/Niitsuma should copy if they want to bring more casuals into their games. </span></font></div></div>
</blockquote>

I like Breakers R and all but I think you’re giving the game way more credit than merited.<br><br>First off, Breakers R DOES have a comeback mechanic, two actually. There’s a damage modifier for Red Health and the craziest damage mod I’ve ever witnessed (outside of X-Factor, duh) is the timer mod, where each passing second increases damage for the next hit (with the damage cap being at about 20 seconds). The latter rewards in favor of the opponent who’s getting their ass beat or locked down by pressure.<br><br>Second, reversals are fairly easy in this game. I don’t have exact numbers but I never recall a time where I said to myself: “Damn, I fucked up reversal xyz again. Reversal window too small - BAWWW!”.<br><br>And finally, “doesn’t cater to bad players”? <br>…Sho wants to have a talk with you, Mister. :expressionless:


#11

Bad. They take the complexity and remove most of the fun.


#12

<blockquote class=“Quote”>
<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/4593/Zee%20Tee%20Bee">Zee Tee Bee</a> said:</div><div class=“QuoteText”>First off, Breakers R DOES have a comeback mechanic, two actually. There’s a damage modifier for Red Health and the craziest damage mod I’ve ever witnessed (outside of X-Factor, duh) is the timer mod, where each passing second increases damage for the next hit (with the damage cap being at about 20 seconds). The latter rewards in favor of the opponent who’s getting their ass beat or locked down by pressure.<br><br>Second, reversals are fairly easy in this game. I don’t have exact numbers but I never recall a time where I said to myself: “Damn, I fucked up reversal xyz again. Reversal window too small - BAWWW!”.<br><br>And finally, “doesn’t cater to bad players”? <br>…Sho wants to have a talk with you, Mister. :expressionless: </div>
</blockquote>

Fair points! But I don’t know about Sho, Shoto’s are for the most part easy to use in every fighter but because of the balance in Breakers it’s possible for pretty much every character to nail him so it’s not an 8/10 matchup in his favor anything. 


#13

Having a low barrier to entry can only yield positive results. Even if a game never manages to achieve a high skill cap along with that low entry barrier (which is the best result), depending on the mechanics, it can still at least be fun, even if it ends up lacking depth.<br><blockquote class=“Quote”>
<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/20911/Louiscipher">Louiscipher</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”><font face=“Arial, Verdana” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: normal;”>Breaker’s Revenge is very easy to get into BUT it doesn’t cater to bad players with input shortcuts or comeback mechanics. No Xfactor, no Ultras, no easy Reversals, no FADC to safety, and no Pandora.<br></span></font></div>
</blockquote>

Comeback mechanics have never actually been the problem. Poorly-designed mechanics are the problem, and it just so happens that the three most prominent recent cases of poorly-designed mechanics (Ultras, X-Factor, and Pandora) are comeback mechanics. So now people have this mentality that comeback mechanics are bad, and when faced with examples of well-designed mechanics that are still clearly designed for comebacks (KOF meter system, any of the three ASW Burst mechanics, etc.), they come up with this retroactive explanation on how they’re not actually comeback mechanics, because any good mechanic couldn’t possibly be a comeback mechanic.<br><br><blockquote class=“Quote”>
<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/20911/Louiscipher">Louiscipher</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”><font face=“Arial, Verdana” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: normal;”>There are Guard Cancels/Reversals (I.E. Breakering) but it takes some significant skill to pull off and you can be easily baited.<br></span></font></div>
</blockquote>

Sort of like this.


#14

<blockquote class=“Quote”>
<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/20911/Louiscipher">Louiscipher</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”><blockquote class=“UserQuote”>
<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/4806/tataki">tataki</a> wrote: <a href="/discussion/comment/8014481#Comment_8014481" class=“QuoteLink”><span class=“ArrowLink”>»</span></a></div>
<div class=“QuoteText”>Most games are easy to play. Most games are also hard to excel at. So what’s your question exactly?</div>
</blockquote>
Honestly, you’d have to play Breaker’s Revenge to get what I’m saying. P4A is another good example. 
</div>
</blockquote>

Or maybe you can just find suitable words to describe what you are talking about.<br><br>Also if you want a less technical GG there are many better ways to do it than what P4U did. For example you don’t need to completely get rid of FRCs and the depth they add just because they are hard. Just make the windows larger and tweak it to make sure it doesn’t create broken edge cases – last frames or first frames allowing you some unchecked BS.<br>


#15

<blockquote class=“Quote”>
<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/84515/GespenstRitter">GespenstRitter</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”>Having a low barrier to entry can only yield positive results. Even if a game never manages to achieve a high skill cap along with that low entry barrier (which is the best result), depending on the mechanics, it can still at least be fun, even if it ends up lacking depth.<br><blockquote class=“Quote”>
<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/20911/Louiscipher">Louiscipher</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”><font face=“Arial, Verdana” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: normal;”>Breaker’s Revenge is very easy to get into BUT it doesn’t cater to bad players with input shortcuts or comeback mechanics. No Xfactor, no Ultras, no easy Reversals, no FADC to safety, and no Pandora.<br></span></font></div>
</blockquote>

Comeback mechanics have never actually been the problem. Poorly-designed mechanics are the problem, and it just so happens that the three most prominent recent cases of poorly-designed mechanics (Ultras, X-Factor, and Pandora) are comeback mechanics. So now people have this mentality that comeback mechanics are bad, and when faced with examples of well-designed mechanics that are still clearly designed for comebacks (KOF meter system, any of the three ASW Burst mechanics, etc.), they come up with this retroactive explanation on how they’re not actually comeback mechanics, because any good mechanic couldn’t possibly be a comeback mechanic.<br><br></div>
</blockquote>

I still haven’t played MVC3 or SFXT, however I still fail to see how Ultras are poorly-designed mechanics in SF4.  Now I can understand if somebody doesn’t like them, however they work exactly as Capcom intended and introduce another set of meta-games within their series, not to mention it also offers the flashy, spectacular, cinematic, superficial aspect that typically appeals to a broader audience.  


#16

I think a majority of the players (both hardcore and casual) dislike comeback mechanics not because you get rewarded for getting hit or losing characters but the kind of reward you get. In the oldschool fighters getting the shit beaten out of you and gaining some meter back was the norm. But now you get the shit beaten out of you and you suddenly gain access to the super good move that completely changes the matchup. Not to mention that no one likes a 20 second cutscene play while the timer keeps ticking away. <div><br></div><div>The concept worked in Samurai Shodown because those were weapon-based fighters where you have to play patiently and one or two hits can do massive damage. It did not work in SF. Needless to say that the supers in Samurai Shodown were typically hard to land and left you wide the hell open if they whiffed or were blocked. </div>


#17

<blockquote class=“Quote”>
<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/20911/Louiscipher">Louiscipher</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”>I think a majority of the players (both hardcore and casual) dislike comeback mechanics not because you get rewarded for getting hit or losing characters but the kind of reward you get. In the oldschool fighters getting the shit beaten out of you and gaining some meter back was the norm. But now you get the shit beaten out of you and you suddenly gain access to the super good move that completely changes the matchup. Not to mention that no one likes a 20 second cutscene play while the timer keeps ticking away. <div><br></div><div>The concept worked in Samurai Shodown because those were weapon-based fighters where you have to play patiently and one or two hits can do massive damage. It did not work in SF. Needless to say that the supers in Samurai Shodown were typically hard to land and left you wide the hell open if they whiffed or were blocked. </div></div>
</blockquote>

You’re literally using your own opinions and stating them as facts coupled with baseless generalizations.  I honestly don’t even know where to begin…  


#18

Seeing that streams are dead and Evo isn’t pulling the biggest numbers it’s ever had…it’s a bad thing obviously.<div><br></div><div>It can tend to take away some of the options you were normally capable of in the older games, but in the end people are still playing outside of the really old conservative type players that Capcom at least isn’t going to cater to anymore.  Especially since those people don’t really make them any money.</div>


#19

<blockquote class=“Quote” style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; line-height: normal;”>
<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/8228/Effenhoog">Effenhoog</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”>Persona 4 Arena did a decent job of keeping the game simple without completely ruining it.  That said, I do think P4A went a bit too far with this, to the game’s detriment.<br><br>As someone who has mostly played Guilty Gear for 5 or 6 years I can definitely appreciate a game being less difficult, but if you go too far your game can definitely start to suffer<br></div>
</blockquote><font face=“Arial, Verdana”><span style=“line-height: normal;”>

I believe P4A got a lot of things right, some even better than GG. Let’s face it, the execution-heavy nature of GG is both a superfluous handicap and it keeps many people from playing. For example, air dashing. Why not give a two attack-button airdash instead of only being able to airdash by double-tapping a direction? I brought this point up to a GG player and he said it shouldn’t be easier because then too many people would be proficient with airdashes.What kind of backward thinking is that? Being able to master double-tapping as soon as you jump so you get a close ground airdash is a waste of time and shouldn’t be so difficult. </span></font><span style=“font-family: ‘lucida grande’, ‘Lucida Sans Unicode’, tahoma, sans-serif; line-height: 1.7em;”>I won’t get into the RIDICULOUS amount of meter management the game has and how a few tweaks to the interface can help make it way easier to follow. </span><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; line-height: normal;”><span style=“font-family: ‘lucida grande’, ‘Lucida Sans Unicode’, tahoma, sans-serif; line-height: 1.7em;”><br></span></div><div>I love Guilty Gear, LOVE IT, but the players make it sound elitist. When P4A came out and simplified so many of Arc Systems mechanics, I thought it was a blessing. Of course GG players got a bit butthurt over it, but removing the unnecessary difficulty of execution removes the belief that only robotic people should be good at it. I hope with future updates of GG they’ll take steps to reworking its problem spots just like +R’s first patch did.</div><div><br></div><div>I recognize I’m a former MvC2 player and we had our shit ruffled when some mechanics of Marvel 3 were made to be easier, but a lot of the changes were so drastic it made it into a different game. </div>


#20

<blockquote class=“Quote”>
<div class=“QuoteText”><a href="/profile/601/Raz0r">Raz0r</a> said:<br><font face=“Arial, Verdana”><span style=“line-height: normal;”>I brought this point up to a GG player and he said it shouldn’t be easier because then too many people would be proficient with airdashes.What kind of backward thinking is that? <br></span></font></div>
</blockquote>

Maybe you should quote a random stream monster and make a generalization based off of that as well?<br><br> Instant air dashes in GG are easy as hell with the “shortcut” of 9 being considered as the first 6. You just need to get used to the motion, like how every player needed to get used to doing a fireball motion when starting to play SF. In MB the directional IAD input is harder IMO (because the 9 doesn’t count as a 6) but that game has a 2 button dash which makes things easy. You picked a really bad example.<br><br>Wavedashing backwards in a proper pace in MVC3 is harder than all the movement shit you’ll ever need in GG, if you really want to compare it to “accessible” games.<br>