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They should be up on A-Cho’s youtube channel, did you check out their november videos?


The A-Cho youtube channel is updating daily, but not cvs2 yet



chang zangief raiden is a pretty tight team


C-Geese >> K-Geese


What is the current thinking on roll-groove Kyo? How would you order the grooves?

I’m thinking A>=C>>N.

A being a tad better than C because his CCs are all good, and his chip/GC CC is immune to ACs. It’s really close though, because C Kyo can do a lot with stored level 2s.

N Kyo lags behind C and A because Kyo’s roll (and therefore, counter-roll) is really bad, and he gets nothing out of level 1s. Run vs dash is about a wash, though given his mixup-based game, run is probably a tad better. Low jump is really good for Kyo, but I don’t think having that in N outweighs the big advantages of stored meter (+faster meter building) and CC activation.


A-Kyo is definitely better than C but C-Kyo might have easier TODs.

nevertheless, the majority of the time you can super, you can CC activate. he also gains CC anti air/guardcrush/chip which makes him more formidable vs P/K and blanka.

IMO, A-Kyo is the hardest character to learn in the game. heres why:

-normals and pokes gets outclassed. while his normals are good, its not as good as most of the other characters. hes certainly not going to win in a footsie game against sagat, cammy, hibiki, etc.

-all of his air normals are super situational compared to someone like sagat with his and vega with his jumping hp/hk (option selects into throw) which is their go to move in the air 90% of the time.

-his CC are done with mutiple dp inputs like sakuras except sakura’s CC doesn’t change when the opponent is blocking or getting hit. for kyos, you have to visually hit confirm his CC and cancel the dp into his qcf+p special or d/f+hk command normal to keep it going.

then theres the CC ender. depending on which groove your opponent is using, you can end the CC with his ground pound OTG into hop kicks into follow up for a potential TOD. the timing for the ender is not the easiest thing to do and like the rest of his CC, it will require lots of practice.

-subpar roll cancels and even more subpar roll. his roll is one of the weaker ones in the game so you won’t be able to easily roll your way in. his safest RC is qcf+lp but compared to ioris, it comes out slower, not as active and has smaller hitbox. also, it overlaps with his lk hopkicks.


Good points. A Kyo’s metered options are just too good. Plus, Kyo isn’t too dependent on the meter either to play his game, with his great meterless damage and mixup game.

C groove’s advantages aren’t that beneficial for Kyo either. Airblock I guess would be helpful if you want to turtle, but that isn’t Kyo’s best game. Always having a lvl 2 for doing huge damage is the biggest perk of C groove, but that isn’t quite as good as having a CC that turns the tide in Kyo’s hardest matches (guessing Sagat, Cammy, Chun?).


Im gonna try get some CVS2 into casuals (not exactly casuals but a house I meet up with other USF4 players )


Picking up this thread, since it came up in casual cvs2 yesterday:

Ken’s kick throw does 2200 damage; Ryu’s does 2100 and Akuma’s does 2000. Factor in the 35% bonus for raged normals, and those numbers become 2970, 2835, and 2700 respectively. The difference between a Ken and Akuma raged throw is therefore less than 1 Ken crouching short of damage (300). It matters, but not that much. I will say that Ken having airthrow is a nice perk.

Also, I checked the damages from the trio’s supers (NickT rocks for posting the bible!). Ken gets most damage from shippu, 6300 (6930 raged). He does have a distinct advantage here, because shippu is much more versatile than Ryu and Akuma’s most damaging supers. Ryu gets 6400 (7040 raged) off shin shoryu, but the spacing is finicky. I still think he can land this in most situations, but technically it isn’t as versatile as shippu. Tatsumaki super does the same damage as Akuma’s shoryu super (below).

Akuma has the weakest guard break game of the three, so this matters less for him. Demon does 7000 damage (7700 raged!), but I literally have never seen an Akuma break guard, then land a raging demon. He’s far more likely to have to resort to his shoryu super, which does 5500 damage (6050 raged), which is a distinct disadvantage.

I’d still take K Akuma over either of the other two shotos >:) He still has the best mobility (teleport+divekick) and the best meterless damage of the three. His oki game is also the strongest, which is really critical since the shotos aren’t going to outpoke too many people on the ground without RC.

(But I’m sorry K-Ryu fans, I’m leaning towards Ken being better now.)


K-Ken takes the cake for me as best K-groove shoto.

What do you guys think are N-Mai’s worst match ups? She just seems so fast and versatile that not a ton of characters could outright dominate her. Some characters will certainly outrange her, like Hibiki, Blanka, and Vega, but her low jump RH is so fast and if she gets cornered she can just wall dive out of there. Also N-groove gives her RC fan, so she gets a slightly riskier mid-range poke. I’d imagine she has some 4-6 match ups, but any 3-7 hard counters?


her bad match ups?

anyone that does more damage and has better normals than her.

IMO K-Sagat bodies her hard.


I don’t know Mai well enough to comment on hard counters. I’m thinking that anybody who can deal with her low jump game and can outpoke her on the ground is going to be problematic. So Sagat, Cammy, Ken?

I could see Bison being a problem as well - hard for her to get in on him, and N Mai doesn’t do enough damage when she does get in.


Ouroborus- good call on K-Sagat. I’ve seen videos where Rai plays super patient and just abuses standing fierce for long-distance pokes and AA and owns C-Sagats, but K-Sagat can RTSD better.

Mr. Warzard- I would think Cammy would be tough but RC fan could help supplement her other pokes and low jump game to make it a decent (5-5 or 4-6) matchup. I could see Ken being tricky.

I actually remember Rai would body A-Bison just about every time without doing anything too crazy. Lots of low strongs to poke, low jump RH every now and then, qcb + fierce after blocking the first portion of a head stomp. He would almost always land his raged super by hit confirming close low shorts into super, low jump RH into super, or max range low short, standing jab xx fan super. Also empty low jumps to bait the CC activate.

Granted, I’m recalling match vids from the best Mai player in the world, so of course he makes Mai look better in just about every matchup. I would think Blanka would be a pretty tough matchup, maybe one of her worst.

Any wisdom, @Buktooth?


I think Mai beats Ken the same way Vega beats Ken.

jump speed and jumping hk are too good in this match. ken can’t really throw fireballs or poke with standing hk (slow start up, tons of recovery). her jump speed and angle of her jumping hk makes it hard for ken to dp. its probably easier if mai is in a low jump groove but then, she gains low jump hk.

standing hp anti airs really well. she also has the fastest sweep in the game tied with rock. Only difference is hers is cancellable and safer on block. Probably more range too. (Rocks lead to nastier set ups though)


@popoblo Cammy may not be a hard counter, but she outpokes Mai on the ground, and doesn’t have too hard of a time against Mai’s low jump game. Damage also favors Cammy.

re:Bison, it’s a K Mai vs N Mai thing. K Mai’s access to two level 3s/round really helps vs Bison. Without access to raged level 3s, the damage skews too heavily in Bison’s favor IMO.

I think Mai fares better against Blanka because he’s a fat, tall-ish character who will have more trouble dealing with her low jump game.

@Ouroborus the difference is that Vega’s ground game forces Ken to rely on riskier stuff; Ken outpokes Mai (RC funky kick and cr.MK primarily), and RC funky kick snuffs low jumps and attempts to run in. Damage also is in C Ken’s favor, at least.


A-Bison. A good N/K- Morrigan as well as N-iori can also give her some trouble, though not 7-3.


Why do you think Morrigan and Iori are good against Mai? Those matchups seem pretty even to me. I don’t see any significant advantages on the ground over Mai. As oki-heavy characters, I would think Mai’s ability to RC wall dive to get out of wakeup mixups would cause them problems.


good call on the Cammy matchup, that is probably at least 6-4 in Cammy’s favor or even close to 7-3. I went into training mode and had Cammy spam the shit out of standing RH and there’s literally not much Mai can do against it other than RC fan. Otherwise, low MP gets stuffed, low RH sweep doesn’t have the range, and low jump RH gets stuffed as well.

against Blanka, the low jump game is a good call if he doesn’t have a charge to RC ball. low MP is a pretty fantastic move since it stuffs his low fierce, his slide, and even his low RH in some instances. It would be spammable like Rose’s low MP in Alpha 2.

As for Mai vs A-bison…

check out 13:45, 18:30, and 24:30 (and ESPECIALLY 25:05 for some cool shit) for Rai’s K-Mai vs A-Bison. Again, not saying she owns Bison or anything, but it will at least give you a better idea of why I’m saying A-Bison is not a bad counter matchup. It’s also a video of the best K-Mai in the world playing, so Rai obviously makes her look that much better, haha.

good discussion!


this is really interesting. theoretically i can see s:ryu better than k:ken, but in practice i dont think so.

im outi