Avengers... Assemble! Assist/Team thread!

captain-america

#481

I’m thinking about starting a “Potential Cap UMvC3 Patch Changes” Thread. I have a couple things I would like to see Cap have in the patch (if there is one). But yeah, any thoughts?


#482

I’ve been at war with it myself. His normals are fine, I feel he needs either his specials buffed or a new move given and that’s where everything I think of makes me sound like one of the casuals making up moves in the update thread. Ultimately the changes he needs are a way to get in on run away and deal with airborne opponents. I feel his shield slash could possibly be the move to be looked at. It’s unsafe, can’t win zoning wars, slow start up, not full screen. Basically any one with a air good projectile (or dormammu normals) can laugh this thing off and let Cap fall while recovering, possibly even punishing him for it. I feel like some characters can just back jump and spam away and cap is pretty much without option to punish them. Wesker air pistol can be insanely trying for cap with a good shell.

Right now I feel Cap is pretty much forced into using 1 of the 6 anti-air assist characters (dante, RR, doom, Stryder, shuma, Task) to be viable or a counter pick tag in. This limits his 3rd option and placement pretty heavy as cap has other issues to fix such as his atrocious safety issues on specials and hypers.

Proposed changes: (a lot of these are pick one, not all obv)
[list]
[]Shield Slash beats all low/mid projectiles, but when this occurs it loses the returning hit making it only hit once - This makes the move still unsafe on whiff, limited comboability, but allows him to fight zoning. Could be too strong though.
[
]Same idea as above but a dedicated qcf+:s: versions designed to counter zoning. Horizontal throw arc.
[]Shield Slash ricochet’s projectiles
[
]Shield Slash recovers instantly upon shield return, ie: if hit collides with a projectile it returns quicker and you can recover to throw again allowing for multiple air shield slashes.
[]Shield Slash reaches full screen
[
]dpf+:l: gets invincibility 1 frame earlier.
[/list]


#483

@ken123103 I already started one lol

Out of curiousity, are there are Cap main’s who can think of any nerfs he should get? lol


#484

So yeah, I’m totally converting to Cap(ss)/Vergil(rs)/Strider(vajra). I think this may give Cap what he needs. Missiles are amazing, but I feel if you use them your other assist must be fast projectile or a horizontal that cap can follow behind with good priority. Rapid slash and missiles means the assists are backing him, so he can’t really follow behind them until missiles are safely deployed. Strider gives Cap a better answer to run away zoning and if snapped out strider has some air movement options to avoid an incoming and if he hits you can DHC to swords and make actual damage and/or safety of the situation.

Overall the team feels more flexible, at some loss to the insane pressure missiles + rapid slash can give Cap in the corner. Doom still feels great, but probably a better pick as a front loaded variant when you notice the bad matchups on the other team rather than the default. Like Yawdan said, neutral game seems to be a bigger concern for Cap teams.

I am really curious about someone getting Cap/RR(log) going. I simply just can’t devote to RR, but the potential is amazing. Log is stupid good with Cap and the DHCs are phenomenal (Hyper CS > mine, free mix up + cap SS assist on block!). I’ve tried Cap/RR(log)/Task(h arrow) in the past and it wasn’t bad.


#485

Sooo on youtube I found this little love note for Cap(SS)/Vergil(RS)/Strider(vajra):

Pretty much fully optimized. Then over at the Vergil combo thread I spotted this improved Swordloop find:

I think I may have found my team…now i just gotta learn those Strider comboes (sooo little damage, sooo much work:/ )

Sooo benefits of this team:
[list]
[]Anti air answer
[
]Full screen answers
[]Cap has safe DHCs
[
]THC gimicks
[]DHC’s all connect
[
]All 3 characters have hard tag combos and neutral game hard tag covers (using projectiles to get a free tag in)
[]Everything converts with a full team
[
]2 anchors
[]Every shell works
[
]Safe approach
[]Hard tags and Swords make everything have TOD potential (including poor strider)
[
]Extensions build very good meter to support vergil/strider
[]Well rounded match ups between the 3 characters.
[
]Incoming mix ups
[/list]


#486

So I played with the vergil extension and slightly modified it and currently my BnB with new team is:

Cap part…
c.:l: s.:m::h::s:, sjc.u+:h:, qcf+:l: (land), j.u+:h:, qcf+:m:, dash, qcb+:l:, :s:, sjc.:m::h: u+:h::s: (land), j.qcf+:l:, dash, :a2:(strider), qcb+:l:, qcb+:l:, **strider, qcf+:l:, qcb+:atk::atk:

Vergil part…
dpf+:atk::atk:, qcf+:l: (wait for them to bounce on swords), qcf+:l: (wait for them to bounce on swords), walk forward, RT, :s::h:, qcf+:l:, c.:h:, dpf+:m:, c.:h:, f+:h: (side switch, works on Wolverine and Cap), RT, c.:h:, qcf+:l:, c.:h:, dpf+:m:, df+:h:, qcf+:atk::atk:

1.2million+, -0.4 meter, requires 0.7 meter to start! Super consistent and works on all except fatties and those smaller than Zero. If you don’t need bubbles to kill, it’s still over 1million and +0.6 meter. Currently I try to cut Hyper CS a little short into swords, to ensure I get to hit with more before they die to gain meter. Meter positive TOD’s make Vergil and Strider happy.

If you can, it’s probably best to finish without bubbles and maybe do a loop simply to get the incoming mix up:
dash back full screen, j.RT, qcb+:m:, try to cross up by dashing underneath, (if blocked now), s.:h:/f+:h:+:a1: (Cap SS), qcb+:m:, s.:h:, qcb+:l:/:m:/:h: mix up, etc…


#487

^ Really good.

How’s the team working out?


#488

It’s stupid good. I really feel this fixed the issues Cap was having in his matchups. Doom (missiles) looking back was sort of an overkill assist, when it was good for the match up it gave Cap obscene rush down (AKA the Cap Train), but on the problematic ones it didn’t seem to really factor. Not too mention Doom’s match ups issues also made him being anchor a liability (but Vergil 2nd for Cap is soooooooo good). Missiles are still amazing for Cap, but you need a quick assist too and Vergil rapidslash isn’t enough. If you go the Doom route I would highly advise Cap/Doom/xx and give them a great quick horizontal assist you can lead with.

With Cap/Vergil/Strider there’s synergy everywhere. Strider’s definitely a work in progress but after playing a few nights with him, I feel he’s great with this team. Vajra answers so many issues and forces people to fight Cap on the ground where he is a serious threat. Once they’re locked down the typical Cap+rapid slash shenanigans are amazing. I wound up chipping half life bars off my friend simply by locking him in the corner with ss + vajra and block strings. Vergil on point gets the SS assist cross up string and vajra can be very lethal to people trying to jump away from him. The neutral game finally feels complete, the opponent really has to respect all of your assists and over committing to try and punish Strider can put them at serious risk of being punished by the point character. I find that Strider doesn’t open people up too often, but simply controlling space gives Cap exactly what he needs to succeed.

If an opponent wants to snap back you’re not nearly as disadvantaged. Strider has air options and his neutral game is amazing. Giving him assists helps him even more and he has access to Sword loops and raw tags to get the team back to the intended position (saving poor Cap from being stuck as anchor). If Vergil or Strider get swapped it’s perfectly fine. Both have insane anchor potential and both have synergy each way to account for flaws. The teams also got some solid shenanigans too. Blocking a projectile (say a hyper) and alpha countering to strider is pretty nice. You also have strider hyper > devil trigger then mix up before the animals land.

Damage was originally a concern but, every combo has TOD potential with swords and hard tags which is great, nearly everything has a way to convert with assists, and the meter management is surprisingly effective due to the extensions. In rare cases you can’t get meter to TOD, strider assist gives Cap and Vergil some amazing reset opportunities. The meter was also a major concern with vergil/strider, but I’m finding strider is never fully deprived by vergil. Proper extensions seem to really keep you well maintained and if Strider drops with too little, XF3 will usually make up for it or even get you the meter you need. It all just seems to work out and I’m still doing day 1 Strider stuff (AKA no wall cling combos T_T).

It’s a little early to call it but I think Cap (SS)/Vergil(RS)/Strider(vajra) may be the most optimized team currently. For every Cap team I’ve seen, I’ve seen some very solid stuff, but at the end of the day I’m seeing match ups issues and lack of validation for using Cap. Cap’s very hard to justify beyond “I like Cap” at high level. There’s some teams that can just invalidate him so your only three options are a counter assist, a counter pick tag out, or some shenanigan like a fullscreen THC to make him playable, and then you still have to ask “is Cap an ideal choice for my other two as opposed to another character?” I still feel there’s unexplored team synergy out there for Cap, but at EVO I saw a lot of good ideas, but not complete teams. Every time I see a good Cap player, I’m often seeing another pairing doing most the work and Cap’s involvement isn’t too significant. In a more balanced game I feel the myriad of teams I see could thrive, but with morridooms, zeros, vergils, hawkeyes, wolverines, etc… they just aren’t getting the same yield.

But seriously someone break Cap/RR (log)… >_> there’s gold in dem hills.

[edit] I will try to put a full tech guide out for this team once I get some more training mode. I feel the combo video above shows a lot of optimized stuff, but new tech and a few ideas I have can take it farther. I think Cap can even do dpf+:atk: + :a2: and combo it safely.

I just need to learn Strider which I’m dreading, but seeing how well this plays I’m forcing myself. (hand gymnastics for no solo damage, yay!))


#489

I’m finally settling in on a few core teams and one of them needs to be online friendly, fun, feature Marvel legends, and–very important–needs to kick Nova’s ass while surviving against Vergil anchor BS. So that’s why I’ve decided on Cap (stars and stripes)/Iron Man (unibeam)/Coon (Log). Can someone explain the log synergy for Cap to me? I know that he gets mauled by people who can stay in the air and log helps with that. But otherwise I’m not sure what it really does so I would really appreciate an explanation. I do know it’s Iron Man’s best assist. Any and all suggestions for the team (like bnbs that use log for example) would be much appreciated.


#490

Log is a versatile assist, providing many roles for Cap.

Your basic tactic is simply going for the assist cross up. IF they jump you are free to call raccoon and either charging star underneath, roll, or do a kara of either to make the timing even more ambiguous (kara by doing s.:h: and then canceling to either roll or CS). You want to sync it so cap is either a little ahead or behind the log depending on what your option is. This also provides a brutal incoming once you learn the exact arc of where the log appears and ends up. Time it so the log is right where they appear and simply roll when they’re in the air, it’s incredibly hard to block.

Log also helps with pressure. It makes CS :m: safe (not :h:) and if you get them in the corner harassing with log and shield slash can keep them pinned down and unable to jump away.

With confirms it gets interesting. Depending on the timing and distance all CS’s can hit and have the log combo the wallbounce following. Cap can also do dp+:atk:+assist, giving him an invincible combo starter that is safe (i believe dpf+:m: is the ideal one for safety on block). You can also confirm off all ground throws. Late in combos you can convert with OTG qcf+:l:, but due to hit stun scaling, you must wait a brief moment before doing the OTG after calling log. Converting the wall bounce is fairly easy and free form. Your typical ender is:
[list]
[*]…sjc.:s: (land), :a1:, slight pause, qcf+:l: (OTG), log hits, backdash, qcb+:l:, qcb+:h:, qcb+:atk::atk:
[/list]

So your use in combos is starting them, comboing an OTG shield slash in corner for a reluanch, or using the above extensions at the end of combos. From their, it’s pretty much normal Cap BnB’s. Reference the Ultimate Cap Guide for ideas.

As a DHC/THC they are strong too. THC allows RR to hit full screen and keep hitting while Cap is free to move. Whether Cap hits or not he can wave dash over and kara roll to the other side as they spin and combo with a properly timed j.d+:h:, qcf+:l:, and convert to a launch combo. You can also run in and on block, do a quick pressure string and try to mix up with the plasma ball at the end. Minigun will connect off most hyper CS, but you may have to DHC early midscreen or they’ll fall too low and far. Mine is awesome! If they block Hyper CS, DHC to Mine, and you get a free setup since it’s plus frames on block. Depending on what assists you have, you have the potential to do an extensions with Mine that are better than minigun, but are execution heavy (usually involves bouncing them on flames a certain way). To combo from RR > Cap, in corner simply do Hyper CS, but at mid screen you must do Hyper SRK; Cap will whiff the first 2 swing,s but hit with the 3rd for surprisingly decent damage just as the ball hits.

You can use either Cap CS or SS as a valid assist. CS is an amazing GTFO with a hitbox that makes it legit anti-air. RR can also take advantage of the hit stun ignore for combo extensions. SS naturally has the long pressure mix up potential.


#491

Wow Cap/Iron Man/Coon sounds like it may be an ideal Cap team. I’m surprised none of you guys play it. Log sounds like it might be one of his best assists. I know that Vergil makes for a stronger team but for those who aren’t a fan of him this sounds like it may be as strong as you can get with Cap. Thanks!


#492

Vergil isn’t required for an ideal Cap team, his advantages are just very direct and vergil himself is a powerhouse. The BFF status is undeniable, but there’s more tech out there. The hard part with cap is simply how do you curb out the match up issues, give him the basic tools he needs, and still have 2 properly arranged characters after the fact. RR’s a great character for Cap, but your 3rd character options become limited. I personally love RR assists and synergy, but don’t have the will to learn RR. Also I would like to run him 2nd as I don’t like him anchor…but that’s because I don’t fully understand his potential and with Cap I REAAAAALLY like having safe DHCs. IM (beam) beam is great for cap, my personal issue is the lack of safe DHC as 2nd and I don’t see him as a strong anchor.

If you can master those characters, it’s a very strong team. Good luck.


#493

My team:
Capt America (SS), Chris (GF), Haggar (L)

I’ve had moderate success. What do you think?


#494

I feel the biggest issue is anchor haggar. Anchor haggar has some insanely bad MU’s and outside teams with tons of tagging tech, I’m simply not a fan. He needs an assist to get in and typically I feel haggar either should be point and front loaded to hell or ideally 2nd. With Cap he provides an amazing defense, but I’ve never been sold on the pairing as being optimal to any other character w/ haggar. Cap/haggar is definitely usable but your 3rd becomes very important.

I don’t have a lot of experience with Chris or his assist so it’s hard to fully weigh in, but Cap/Chris seems a bit limited. DHC only works in corner, no safe DHC, unsure of how effective the assist is with CS :m:, etc…

Perhaps elaborate on some of the tech with the team as I feel I’m missing something.


#495

If your happy with how your team is doing then it’s fine.

However I feel there are better alternatives to Chris and Haggar, if you want to build a team around Captain America.

If the level of players you fight is low, you’ll do fine. But your[1] team will hinder you if you go up against more capable players, especially if they use better characters/teams.

1= spelling correction


#496

I’ve been thinking about giving Cap/Dante/Frank a shot, but I’ve seen very little stuff about how well Cap works with Shopping Cart. I’m wondering if that’s partly because of Cap’s usually sub-par leveling tech? If so, putting Dante in the middle makes Cap much stronger in that respect (DHC through Devil Trigger into Skydance hardtag for example), and I’m wondering if anyone has experience with the pairing.

As a 31 frame assist, I would assume Cart works quite well for cartwheel crossups (the last post I found referencing it [by ifbpwnstar] said this as well). Does it contribute to Cap’s CS game? It would definitely cause significant scaling, but my main goal would be to get chainsaws as early as possible and play the majority of the match with Frank/Cap/Dante, so the damage would matter less than the leveling opportunity. Frank doesn’t work particularly well with Weasel Shot, so I’d be backing Cap with Shopping Cart and Jam Session. As someone with limited Cap experience, that sounds decent to me, but I’d appreciate some input from the experts.

If anyone has worked with Cap/Frank, I’d also like to know how well Frank does with CS or SS as assists.

Anyone have thoughts?


#497

Shopping cart definitely works well with Cap. It’s limited with his CS game since it’s not full screen but it does have its merits. My only concern is the same as yours with leveling…however Cap has hard tag combos if Frank will do a better job getting more hits. c.:l::m::h:, qcf+:h: > hard tag (may have to play with this some). I think the team has potential overall.

While jam session is not Cap’s favorite assist, it definitely helps in some of his weak areas and Dante is ALWAYS a good teammate. Devil trigger is a great DHC, the THC works amazingly well with Cap on hit and block, Dante has decent matchups against Cap’s bad ones. Also I feel that there are enough hard tags between the two you could easily level up frank with unique combos.


#498

Hey man, thanks a lot for the response. I’m out of town for a couple of days and can’t test stuff, but Cap generally seems to be really HSD friendly, so I think the leveling via Dante should be pretty legit. I might have to sacrifice damage during the level combo, but that’s often the case. Besides the hard tag to Frank (which would definitely work), I was thinking that I could probably engineer this positioning fairly consistently:

Sorry I realize that’s probably a pretty scrubby Cap combo, but HSD permitting, I think there’s a lot of potential. Hopefully I can work something similar out off throw pickups or air confirms.

I guess I’ll try both CS and SS as Cap’s assists and see which add the most for Frank. Have any predictions on which would work best? I’m interested in Shield Slash just because it’s not a block string, and it seems reasonably strong in terms of durability/startup. Maybe I could get some throw setups between the hits and use Frank’s AA command grab hyper to counter upbacking? I won’t be sure about the spacing until I can hop on. Frank is fantastic at controlling space, so he might get a lot of mileage out of Charging Star as well, plus it’s so fast I could work out some solid left/right’s with Frank’s roll, and I know it’d be a great combo assist.

Incidentally, you guys are doing a fantastic job with the guide thread :slight_smile:


#499

This is a pure theory, but I think a better approach would be to abuse multiple hard tags. First off hard tag at the start of Caps combos, if either dante or frank get convert off what I posted, they’ll likely rack up more hits. Experiment with snap + assist + snap with cap and dante. Ideally if you can go Cap > hard tag to Dante > combo > hard tag to Frank > snap + jam session > snap > hyper > devil trigger > had knock down> hard tag to frank > snap. You may have the damage and lvl 5. I think there’s a LOT of room to experiment and you can likely build the hits BEFORE doing DHC’s and up your damage and meter yield.

It’s a hard call on Cap’s assists. You really have to experiment with neutral game and combo use. Typically the order I test is SS > CS > SnS. If you find SS and CS aren’t doing much, taking SnS is not a bad idea for the invincible alpha counter and SRK hyper in THCs. If I had to guess, I’m expecting SS to be your best bet. Theory uses:
[list]
[]Frank roll + SS, roll again (I do this with vergil and it’s hilarious)
[
]Long combo, frank snap + SS assist, flip out, guarantee frank’s anti air hyper?
[]Dante teleport + SS. Depending on range the push/pull can really make it awkward to guess the side dante is on.
[
]Creates interesting block strings and the 2nd hit lets you run back in if advanced guarded while they’re forced to block.
[/list]

CS is an amazing GTFO, easy conversion, helps beat out projectiles, and the hard knockdown may come in handy in combos.


#500

Your rundown is great, thanks a lot for all the input, man!

I agree 100% on prioritizing a tag, and I’m definitely looking forward to messing with the process. I’ll be honest: nothing motivates me to lose hours in the lab more than Frank level tech haha :stuck_out_tongue: Basically the make-or-break thing is how reliably I’ll be able to get a Cap confirm that lets me use the hard tag. You posted what seems to be a grounded one, and I feel sure I’ve seen a post-launcher superjump version. If there are some confirms that are going to give me trouble leveling Frank, I might stick to the Cap/Dante/Frank order to keep the low damage option in the pocket.

Unfortunately, in my experience, Dante hard tags Frank unreliably outside the corner using Skydance, but I did see a combo recently that included a Stinger xxbcxx Teleport Skydance and a Prop Shredder sj xx Teleport Skydance. I’m not sure if they’re character-size dependent (was on Skrull), but at the very least the first is almost certainly height dependent and has to be preceeded by shot loops. That being said, I could probably tag Dante in with Cap and find a link into Volcano to set up shot loops if I had to. Alternatively I could run Cap/Frank/Dante, tag Dante in, and combo into a Million Dollars --> Frank DHC or use one of Dante’s capture state options. I’d probably be best served not shifting Cap to anchor, though.

Maybe tagging Frank in would be the best bet because I could do whatever it took to build 2 bars and use the Million Dollars THC for a Snapshot. If Frank can get to that point without using a ground bounce there would be a very long follow-up that might well build close to another bar for a level 5 Survival Tools and more than likely over a million damage. This is theory because I can’t test it, but the only problem I see is that I couldn’t call Cap in time after the THC: (Million Dollars with 1 Snap to level 4) Knee Drop, (Call Cap), j.Tools H, s.S sj.S, (Falling) j.Tools H, L Zombie Swing, Roundhouse M, (Call Dante) Snapshot, Kneedrop, Roundhouse H, Survival Tools. If that doesn’t work there are a lot of ways I could do it to change the order, get level 5 earlier in the follow-up, etc.

The only problem there would be that Cap would suddenly be in anchor position, which doesn’t sound fantastic…It would be a good reason to use Shield Slash as my assist, however, because Dante would probably benefit from it more.

Anyway, I don’t want to derail the thread with Frank leveling tech (sorry :stuck_out_tongue: ), but you’ve given me a ton of stuff to think about, and I really appreciate it. I think there are several different ways/orders that would make it work, which can only be a positive. Once I can make it to the lab, I’ll share what I’ve found in case it’s interesting.