*** LAST UPDATED 1/10//2010 ***
**This thread is for you guys to send me stuff to test out in Arcade Edition for Gouken.I will keep updated information/confirmation tests on Gouken’s moveset,attributes,combos, links, and match up knowledge. Hard frame data will be scarce at first, but hopefully the video footage should at least give a good approximation of what Gouken players will be working with in AE. **
I will update the newest consolidated list in this post, but please comment below on what you’d like me to test out.
**Moveset and Attributes**
Like most of the community when I heard the the dev’s comment “All of Gouken’s normal moves have been improved” it left a pretty vague impression on how they actually got better (or worse in some aspects) and how it affected Gouken’s playstyle and matchups. From my observations,his normals have increased hit stun and block stun, so no more 0 on block jabs and shorts, they have enlarged hit boxes, but don’t explicitly add range, and resultingly , has a slew of new combos, a ton of new set ups and blockstrings because of the normal buffs, and an improved AA, defensive, and offensive game thanks to other special move changes that compliment his new normals. I will try and cover all I have seen, and add my take on what these changes actually mean in the below sections.
Light Punch(LP) aka Jab[/CENTER]
Has increased blockstun and hit stun, seems like it has a slightly larger hitbox(this is evident in divekick char. Matchups). You can use his Jabs like any shoto where you can either link them or cancel them both quite easily. His jab combos into more things now, and is generally slightly improved. It still feels like a 4 frame jab however, and for fast close up counter hit set ups and pokes, it is wiser to use st.MK or st.MP.
** Medium Punch(MP) aka Strong**
This is your new go to poking tool. Crouching strong has approx. the same recovery, damage and startup, but, you can now put it in links and combos that you couldn?t previously (more in the blockstrings and combos section). Crouching MP seems to have a larger hitbox and it feels more like a Shoto’s c.MK than ever before. Use Crouching Strong as such for I have seen no reason not to yet.
Standing medium punch is actually a better anti air and mid range zoning tool than before. It looks to have faster startup and it definitely stuffs more normals and jump ins than it did before.
Close Standing MP is Gouken?s combo and blockstring starter. This and fierce punch are the best normals he has now, hands down. You can do all the things you could with it in console SSF4, but now since it has increased stun, you can combo two jabs into a c.MP but the fireball will not combo except under certain circumstances, and, it is a harder link to get 2 st.MP s than before. These are two minor gripes but overall MP is your new footsie tool.
**Heavy Punch(HP) aka Fierce**
Still a great normal, standing fierce seems faster and great as a blockstring ender and general poke. Anti airing with it is better as well. Crouching Fierce is still the best choice though. It still feels 6 frame and has the same hitbox.
Light kick(LP) aka short
Seemingly same properties standing, but has better recovery and block/hitstun allowing for it to be his long range poke along with St.MK. Crouching LK will stop Yun?s uppercut kick on startup, along with his Ultra 2, so it seems to have a better hit box. It?s recovery is good enough now to stick it out at the end of a blockstring and not fear a jump in punish. I?ve actually used it to bait jump in and punish with a Kongo or Lk. Tatsu. It Still can be used the same ways as before in resets, combos, and blockstrings.
Jump :lk: seems just as ambiguous on crossup as akuma’s now, and it does some cool stuff in the corner. It still doesn’t have enough blockstun to safely blocking following a blocked jump-in but its a very small window, so you’ll rarely get hit out of the subsequent blockstring. Combine its block stun with a follow up Kara grab and you have a great mix up for your blockstrings that will catch the opponent off guard from the same old hi/lo block string ender mixup.
**Medium kick(MK) aka Forward**
Pretty much the same move. The hit stun and block stun were increased a little on standing MK as characters cant punish as easily on whiff, and when blocked I haven?t seen Chun Li super it, so it?s still pretty good. Haven?t noticed a hit box increase on St.MK,; it?s still used in the same ways as before. Cr.MK is still great and can be used in new places in combos. Works better as an anti air now too. I reliably don?t get it stuffed or trades when I time it correctly as an Anti Air, especially against divekick characters.
**Heavy Kick(HK) aka Roundhouse**
I haven?t noticed it being very different from super when used on the ground. It may be faster on startup, but not by much, just because you can use it in the combo clst.MP->HK. It may be the added hitstun on MP, or added startup for HK? Im not 100%. It is better as a jump in cross up though, and it will stuff moves like EX rushing punch from Yun quite handily on a back jump. Roundhouse should be mixed into your jump in game as its new airborne properties are awesome.
From what I?ve seen, the ?pursuit? property that was added to j.HP and HK do the following:
-Slam down airborne opponents. This new feature also seems to slightly ?pursue? the opponent, meaning that it will sort of suck in an opponent if they were doing something other than blocking(since jump in normals do not really use the ?auto guard? hitbox and don?t cause the auto block that you see on grounded normals or specials)
-Has a better chance of punishing or altogether stopping a backdash on a jump in.(Remember: a lot of characters got that ?During backdash, Xcharacter is now considered airborne right after invincibility ends?, which means they will get slammed down.)
Jumping Hard Kick has cross up potential in the corner, and the timing window for it IMO is not as small. J.HK will hit in situations it wouldn?t , like in the blanka, Honda, or any other small character frame matchup. You can still use it as a tricky jumping normal to black when you input it immediately after back or forward jumping. I?ve seen it hit overhead a few times at distances I didn?t remember it could.
**Kongoshin aka Parry aka Counter**
Basically with the new mapping you have to REEEEAAAALLLYYY pay attention to where your opponent?s attack is hitting you to properly choose which parry will correctly work. There is very little leeway in this. You must learn how every character?s moves hit Gouken. Most of the time its pretty straight forward and you can use High and Low parry to cover most stuff, but Mid parry is very important to learn and since it will cover some cr.normal attacks, you actually will be hitting the medium punch button a lot in your parry game.
Ok, so here?s how this works to clear all confusion.
Light Punch- It counters low hitting moves. Attacks such as Dudley?s overhead hit multiple times and can be counter with High, Mid, or Low parry depending on when the attack is hitting you, and what hit is in parry range.
Example: Dudley throws his overhead f+HP overhead on you as you are waking up. If it is timed earlier than it should(the attack is closer to finishing as you wake up) then use low parry as mid parry will get counter hit. If he throws it meaty than use mid parry as low will most likely get you a counter hit.
Medium Punch- Counters Mid Hitting moves. Think overheads, crouching jabs, most special move?s hitboxes(I know bison?s scissor kick is either high[early] or low[late]), Fireballs, and some jump ins.
Heavy Punch- Counters High hitting moves. This is almost exclusively for jumpins, standing normals(like Sagat?s roundhouse in later frames) and weird airborne special attacks(air fireballs, command normals in air, etc)
EX- Covers all bases. Its pretty much the shit. Costs one bar though.
All Kongoshin?s have the same frame data from what ive seen, but EX seems to stay out a little, and I mean like max 3 frames, longer.
Gohadouken aka Fireball aka FB
Same move. No new properties from what I can tell. **Tatsumaki aka Tatsu aka Hurricane Kick** Tatsu improved a lot but you use it in essentially the same ways as before. The recovery time feels slightly faster (especially on airborne tatsu). It has a larger hitbox, meaning that you can reliably use any strength as a mid tier anti air or ?bitch shoryuken?. Roundhouse is pretty much the go to choice for AA since its hitbox will allow you to throw it early or later then ever before, but there are some angles that you need to know where you?d want to use MK or LK Tatsu. EX Tatsu is so much better now. The suck in property they gave it means that if you connect cleanly, or even partly, with the first hit, you will get all the hits. If the opponent gets hit after the 1st hit of the Tatsu, then the Tatsu will more likely than not give you the rest of the hits. It still can spit the opponent out when it connects after the 1st hit, but you will get more hits when this happens than in SSF4.
Choosing the right AA Tatsu is still something you are going to have to play around with and feel out in a matchup, but it is much more reliable as an AA than before, and the only things to keep in mind when using it as AA are the distances in which each strength hits, and the timing in which you need to execute it to hit cleanly. Both of these are far easier to do now. Im not afraid to throw up out like an SRK anymore.
You can also option select against a jump in now by doing :bdp:+:hp:+:lk:+:mk: (or just using your tatsu of choice.(use short for cross up attempts) and you will get the appropriate action. Parry will come out if they neutral jump or they safe jump, and throw is the subordinate option for if you timed it too late. The timing is a little awkward at first and I actually discovered it on accident by doing crouch tech and 2 punches and i got an EX Tatsu when an opponent tried to cross me up, and I’ve done this against a number of jump ins and it performed as expected. I will get some video evidence of it and definately test it and any alternative inputs to try and see if Gouken has a reliable "defensive option select " now. :woot:
Running Palm This was probably the most over hyped change Gouken got and for all intent and purposes, it's the same move for the most part. You can use it to gain a bit of bar whenever you want, and it takes about 5-6 palms to get 1/4 of one EX bar, so just spam it a few times after getting a fullscreen fireball knockdown or something. Read in the below sections to see the changes to LP.Palm and it how can be used. I can say that it has a faster startup and recovery and haven?t seen it punished on block by anything due to its pushback. (Not necessarily true in the corner though) Demon flip Pretty much the same, except for the air parry buff. The air parry recovers fast enough to absorb a jab close to the ground and have time to grab someone. I think it may be 4 frames of recovery. Otherwise the options from demon flip operate as normal.
I do think that his demon flip divekick has better priority now. Either that or the other characters changes make it appear so. Vortex still possible. I will write more about newer options in the vortex after more testing.
**Links and Cancels** Everything he had before is in the game. I will only go over new stuff.(Goh=Fireball DF=Demon flip DFDK=demon flip divekick, DFP=Demon flip parry)
StCl.:mp:–>cr.:hp:xx:mp: Palm or :lp:.Palm (HP Palm is too inconsistent. It?s a timing and distancing issue)
StCl.:mp:–>cr.:hp:xxEXpalm(This is the new BnB. It does more damage, more stun, and puts them slightly closer to the corner
:lp:–>cr.:lk:xx:lp:.Palm (very distance dependant and hard to time. Might be character specific)
Backthrow–>:lp:goho–>c.:hk:? or :lp:Palm(corner or near corner only)
Backthrow–>:mp:Goh --> :lk: Air Tatsu
j.HP,MK,HK,DFDK–>StCl.:mp:–>cr:hp:xxEXpalm–> :hp:.Goh–>:lp:.Goh–> :lp:.Palm
StCl.:mp:xx:lp:Goh(I Kara it)–>cr.:hk: or cr.:fp:–>whatever
StCl.:mp:xx:lp:.Goh–> St.:lp:xx:lp:.Palm(might be character specific, 50% success rate)
cr.:hp:xxEXpalm–> nj.:hp: or nj.:hk:
cr.:hp:xxEXpalm–>:hp:.Goh–> Air Tatsu( a fast :lk: one is best)
2x:lp:–> cr.:mp:xx:lp:.Goh–>cr.:hk:(may be character specific, more testing)
StCl.:mp:xx:lp:.Goh(I Kara it)–> Overhead (lolz)
I wanna do some testing to see if I can do something more with StCl.MPxxLP.Goh(I Kara it)
Note: I haven?t included some other corner combos im working on. I think on the crazier ones I may have gotten counter hits.
All his previous ones are still in the game. A lot of the newer blockstrings and frame traps rely on StCl.MP. You can paste in StCl.MP into the beginning on almost any blockstring or frametrap now.
New ones would be:
StCl:mp:–>cr.:hp:–>st.:mk: or st.:hk:
StCl:mp:–>:lp:–>cr.:lk:xx:lp:.Palm(palm won?t hit)
2:lp:–>cr.:hp:xx Goho,DFDK,DFGrab,st.HK, cr.MPxxGoho, or cr.HK
The B-Nasty special:(in corner) DFDK–>s.:mp:xx(Kara):lp:Goh–>s.:mk:xx(Kara):lp:Goh–>repeat.
(in corner) DFDK–>s.:mp:xx(Kara):lp:Goh–>s.:mk:xx(Kara):lp:Goh–>2 cr.:lp:–>cr.:mp:xx:lp:Goh–>FADC
- The deal with this is that in Super s.:mp:xx(Kara):lp:Goh left you at ~+4 on block, so when you do the 3 frame s.:mk: then you are at +1. The Gohadouken’s are super cancelled, and kara’d, so you’ll always be in range to do another s.:mk:, it will hit as efficiently as possible because of the kara gohadoukens, and the fastest reversals (besides some supers and Kongo) are 3 frame, if you have great execution, you can perform consecutive 1 frame links with the s.:mk: after gohadouken to trap the opponent in the corner infinitely.
Now, this set ups is valid by my calculations, but i could be wrong since it’s so hard to test or i just fucked up the calculations. This “infinite blockstring” is more of a feeling kind of thing since its almost impossible to make the 20+ iterations of 1 frame links to prove this thing broke as fuck, but the testing I’ve done showed that I could do a max of 15 iterations and a Avg min of about 5 iterations when my execution was on point and my opponent was mashing normals, ex SRK’s and grabs.
Where i got knocked out of this the most was between the first fireball after the first s.:mk:.
Now since gouken got more stun on his normals, who knows what the frame data is on this, but I have included below some clips of a gouken player utilizing a few iterations of this technique successfully and pretty creatively against some new and old competition.(character wise)
This set up still shows some merit however since its very hard to tell when youre out of blockstun if youre the one getting it done on you, and the Gouken executing it can halt the blockstring at anytime to halt mashing, set up for counter hits or parries, go for additional pressure with DFDKs after :mk:, or go for grab set ups since you’re already so close. All of that coupled with the fact that after about 5 iterations you’re doing pretty good chip, even if you didn’t get counter hits, makes this a pretty solid corner trap. I say it should be the BnB corner pressure starter.
*Note: this thing does get counter hits on your opponent pretty well since theyll most likely try to mash a normal, if not an srk or something, so you must be mindful when you see them and either combo from them(:mk: cancels into any special), or wait a tic then continue the blockstring. If you do neither you run the risk of getting out of s.Cl.:mk: range and fucking up the pressure)
@40:30 watch from here for about 4 matches. This gouken does some of the blockstrings, combos, frametraps and set ups I’ve discussed.
Match up Specifics
Gouken's matchup's essentially play out the same ways they did in Super console, but due to the other characters nerfs and buffs added with Gouken's buffs, Gouken has become seriously more of a threat due to all his normals becoming better, has greater offensive potential because of this, and still retains his great fireball zoning AND has much improved AA specials. He also does slightly more damage on his BnB's now too making the ratio for margin of error to winning momentum has shifted drastically more towards the opponent's side.
In general this is a hard fight and you have to play the match up a lot to learn all the divekick set ups and which ones players will use more frequently, what their spacing is like when they want to do X divekick, and what normal or special can you AA him with, if you even can.
The matchup is actually as bad or worse than the Rufus match because Yun has more options, and even despite his low stamina and health his divekick is harder to deal with, all his EX and light specials are safe on block, and since gouken is a large character, Yun can do more damaging combos when in Genei Jin. You have to calm down,dont try to stuff all his divekicks with jab or c:mk: all the time, use :lp:+:lk:+:mk: for the crouch tech when you do actually use it and/or want to stuff a divekick, and stray away from using fireballs at mid range. If you calm down when he’s pressuring you and have kept him out before the pressure with a nice fireball game,have a good use of AA normals, and can land even just 1 combo when you do apply pressure, then you’re in good position to take the match. If you get him to the corner there’s very little he can do. when you apply come clever pressure or just chip him enough to run away and lame him out. Yun doesnt have a suuuuper great game at catching run away characters. He’s just good at pressure when he’s on your nuts, other than that you can pretty much stunt on him.
Heres some info and tips
-Fuck his palm. Use charged fireballs if you see him and/or think he will try and absorb them to gain bar(the palm gains bar, not palm and absorbing the fireball). Anything more than a single hit projectile will hit Yun during his :qcb: :mp: or :hp: "palm:
-His up kicks(anti air srk kicks) are godlike. Learn how you can safe jump them. This just comes with experience. They are 4 frame start up most likely, but the EX is immune to safe jumping. Don’t try to :mk: crossup after a sweep…you’ll just eat an EX upkick and possibly get U1’d,EX Rush Punch’d, or knocked down and set up for his “vortex”:sarcastic:
-Use :mp: Kongo to beat his divekicks. If they are super low to the ground then use :lp:. :hp: Kongo is only really good for beating Yun’s :lp:xx:hp: air target combo that looks abnd operates like chunli’s jumping :hp:. You have to block it high for all 2 hits, and you cant :mp: parry between them.
-cr.:mk: beats a close divekick and has fast enough recovery so that if he instead tries to empty divekick and tries to grab, you can Neutral Jump and try to combo or blockstring, backjump :hk:(preferred) or :hp: and try to catch a dashing punch, shoulder charge(the kick hits the top of yun’s hittable boxes when correctly timed), or another divekick, after he whiffs the throw.
If he tries cr.:lk: after a whiffed close divekick(most Yun’s will) then you can train your opponent to to stop it by using Jab Kongo.This will help you set up a situation where you can space him out by cr.:hp: after he close divekicks and get out of pressure, or you can use another normal(st.:mk: or st.:mp:) if he’s too close after the divekick(s).
-If you’re getting chipped to death and he has bar dont try to U1
him because ex up kicks and short upkicks have a lot of invuln and will
make the ultra whiff
Questions and Answers
? Are there any viable frame traps with hado and lp palm now after knock down or reset?
Yes, watch the videos.
? lp palm as AA- works at the same distance as a cr.HP and a lk tatsu. You basically use it in lieu of both of those. It is stuffable though, and I’ve yet to see which of the 3 is the best anti air for X jump in, but im leaning towards crHP and lk tatsu.
? Is overhead the same speed? yes, and has the same frame data on hit and block. the blockstun is amazing.
? The truth behind backthrow, is it scaling, is it grey damage for the whole combo? Yes its gray damage, already proven.
? j.HKs pursuit, like does it combo after a 2 hit j.MP? yes.
? How fast is the DF Parry recovery?(in say comparison to df palm of akuma)
Akuma’s palm is 4 frame recovery, goukens is around that area, I can EX flip-> air parry and absorb a jab and on landing not eat the next mashed jab from characters like balrog(3frame jab)
? Far s.hp still do shitty 90 damage?
? Are there any viable frame traps with hado and lp palm now after knock down or reset?
Yes, watch the videos.
I will be getting a better camera, so i apologize for the iphone vids.
My YouTube channel- replays against Hsien Chang and my friends (you get to see an actually good Yun.)
- I have a sweet double KO in the Yang match
-I play against hsien chang and have some really great matchup stuff for you guys.
-I try out a lot of random shit and get set ups to kara throw the fuck out of people.
Gouken vs a collection of characters
Justin.tv - arcadeufo - SSF4: AE Live all day!
go to 10:36 to see 3 videos of me. I do some interesting stuff here and do some never seen before blockstrings and combos. I also successfully use lp.palm as AA.
Gouken vs Ryu
Justin.tv - arcadeufo - SSF4: AE Live all day!
@17:20 secs I play and beat Viet Vo(Ryu), who beat IFC Yipes at Absolute battle. its a good match to show you how Gouken fairs against a great ryu in AE. (its pretty sweet.)
Gouken vs Akuma
Justin.tv - arcadeufo - SSF4: AE Live all day!
@1:15:15 i fight Viet’s akuma. Now you can see how abysmal the Akuma match up is :-(.
this match i just tried to do every wakeup option i had at the time to see what happened. I played like a jack ass purposefully
@1:34:05 I play for real against viet’s akuma.
@1:50:00 I play his akuma again and use j.Mp 2 hits->U2-denjin to some success.