Back Throw to MP Safe Jump Results!

vega

#1

FINAL UPDATE: THIS THREAD IS NOW OBSOLETE :slight_smile: CHECK THE NEW BACK THROW TO MP SAFE JUMP THREAD FOR INFO ON THE NEW ULTRAS AND CHARACTERS FROM SUPER SF4

Update: Thanks to Asfddfasdfas for pointing out incorrect info on Sagat, Ryu and Viper’s Ultras. They will NOT connect! Sorry about the error.

Update: *Akuma and Fuerte’s Ultra **CAN ** be avoided with a jump or backflip, provided you haven’t committed to anything else on landing. This leaves Dhalsim as the only character that can Ultra your safe jump! *

Heya!

In the Q&A thread, theres been some awesome discussion by laxlight, Tatsu, Chritorisu and a couple others about safe jump setups for Vega. I?ve been really intrigued by these safe jump set ups since I?ve never known how to reliably work it into my game before. Since the back throw safe jump is so easy and consistent, I did some balls-to-the-wall testing on every character to see how it performed.

Basically as described by Tastsu, this setup involves back throwing your opponent, then immediately holding up-forward to jump in with strong punch. For best results, the mp should be inputted late, just before you land. It will hit a standing character, but allow you to land safely in time to block if they try any reversals. You can punish backdashes by option selecting cr rh or cr hp.

I was overjoyed at the results I got on Rufus since that bastard is one of my worst match ups personally. In fact, I was surprised with how well it does against some of Claw?s suckier matchups. Here?s what I came up with:

I tried to list the characters somewhat in order based on how well the safe jump worked. Fucking awesome at the top and poor at the bottom. I?ll bold anything I find particularly interesting or useful.

-All these notes are for the back throw to jump mp setup only.

-I try to distinguish between a move completely whiffing or just getting blocked, since on block a lot of moves can be safe with FADC.

-Most characters can crouch block and avoid your MP, so be aware if you are option selecting the slide.

Rufus- 100% Safe!!! :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: Let?s check the score, that?s ?1? for Vega?..?872? for Rufus? Jump-in whiffs if Rufus crouches.

-Stuffs normal Snake Strikes, EX Snake Strike whiffs
-Stuffs normal Messiah Kicks, EX Messiah gets blocked! Scarlet Terror to avoid the mixup at the end.
-Stuffs reversal Super
-Ultra gets blocked

Cammy- 100% Safe! Great stuff, absolutely no reason not to use this on Cammy, especially with such a great punishment opportunity after a whiffed Cannon Spike (she can?t FADC). Jump-in whiffs if Cammy crouches.

-All Spiral Arrows get blocked
-All Spin Knuckles whiff
-Stuffs Houligans
-All Canon Spikes completely whiff!!!
-Super and Ultra get blocked

Fei Long- 100% Safe! Another character that this setup shines on. Punish those flaming kicks! Jump-in whiffs if Fei crouches.

-Stuffs all Rekkas
-Lk Chicken Wing gets blocked, all others whiff
-All Flame Kicks whiff!!!
-Super and Ultra get blocked

Balrog- 100% Safe! Hell yeah! Jump-in hits if Balrog crouches. Eat it!

-Turn Punch gets blocked
-All Headbutts whiff!!
-All normal Dash punches get stuffed, EX absorbs the mp but is then blocked. You can probably even beat the EX punch with a followup after the mp eats the armor, but I didn?t test this.
-Super and Ultra are both blocked

Sakura- 100% Safe! After a back throw on Sak, sit back and relax, knowing that your j mp can?t go wrong! Jump-in whiffs if Sakura crouches.

-Stuffs all Otoshi?s
-Stuffs all Tatsu?s
-Stuffs normal Shoryukens, EX gets blocked
-Super and Ultra get blocked

Rose- 100% Safe! Rose never had much of a wake up game, but knowing that even her Ultra can?t catch you is a good thing. Jump-in whiffs if Rose crouches.

-Lp Soul Refect whiffs, all others stuffed
-All Soul Throws whiff
-Stuffs mp and hp Soul Spiral, lp and EX get blocked
-Super and Ultra get blocked

Blanka- 100% Safe! :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: Finally catch a break against this asshole. Don?t do it if chip damage from Ultra can kill you. Jump-in whiffs if Blanka crouches.

-Stuffs all Horizontal Balls
-Electricity whiffs
-All Backstep Balls whiff and need to be blocked
-All Vertical Balls get blocked
-Super and Ultra get blocked

Bison- 100% Safe! Just be sure not to continue mashing out a block string if he wakes up with Headstomp. Option-select slide is probably a good choice, since it should take blocking Headstomps out of the equation (and even let you punish in some cases), and it puts you in striking distance if Bison teleports backward on wakeup.

-Stuffs all normal Psycho Crushers and Scissors, and both EX versions get blocked
-Headstomps avoid your mp (EX won?t hit you on the way up either though), but then you have to worry about him coming down. O/S slide to avoid this issue.
-Super and Ultra get blocked

C. Viper- 100% Safe! Very effective! Anything she does gets stuffed, blocked, or whiffs. Jump-in whiffs if Viper crouches.

-HP Thunder Knuckle whiffs! Punish that shit.
-EX Burning Kick whiffs
-EX Siesmo gets blocked

-Super gets blocked
-Ultra gets blocked

Dan- 100% Safe! 100% Saikyo! If Dan avoids your jump mp by Super Taunting, goddamnit you let that Super Taunt finish, do you hear me?! You let it finish! Jump-in whiffs if Dan crouches.

-All Gadoukens get blocked. I found this interesting because every other character?s projectile gets stuffed, but Dan?s moves his hitbox in a way that avoids the mp.
-Normal Dankukyaku?s (Tatsu?s) get blocked, EX Kick gets stuffed.
-Stuffs lp Shoryuken, mp and hp whiff, EX gets blocked
-Super Taunt avoids jump-in!
-Super and Ultra are blocked

Gen- 100% Safe(maybe?)! No worries using it on this guy. Then again I suck with Gen, I just realized that maybe Gen can do his glitch parry into punish on your safe jump? I would think you could still block in time though, maybe someone can confirm this? Probably don?t have to worry about it unless you plan on playing Yeb :slight_smile: Jump-in whiffs if Gen crouches.

-Stuffs all Jyasen
-Stuffs normal Ogas, EX Oga lets him escape. You might have to block a followup.
-All Gekiro (the up kicks) whiff!
-Punch activated Super and Ultra get blocked
-Kick activated Super and Ultra whiff

Seth- 100% Safe! Even on bullshit Ultra! Hoorah! Option select slide to get in poke range on backwards teleports. Jump-in hits if Seth crouches.

-Stuffs all Sonic Booms
-Stuffs all Tanden Engines
-Stuffs normal Hyakure Kicks, EX Kick gets blocked
-Stuffs lp Shoryuken, all others get blocked
-Stuffs normal SPD?s, EX SPD whiffs.
Vega is a safe distance from all SPDs on landing.
-Stuffs mp and hp Super , lp Super gets blocked
-Ultra gets blocked

**Chun Li- ** Quite safe and awesome VS the Chunster, with the exception of cr jab spam. Jump-in whiffs if Chun Li crouches.

-Both crouching short and crouching jab will catch you on your landing. If you?re playing one of those Chuns that likes to substitute cr jab for blocking and teching, this might actually get you.
-Stuffs all Lightning Kicks and Hazanshu?s
-Stuffs normal Spinning Bird Kicks, EX Spinning Bird Kick whiffs!
-First hit of Super will connect and knock you away. However, this is low damage and worth the risk imo, especially if it eats up her whole meter.
-Ultra will either whiff completely under you or get blocked, depending on the timing.

Vega- 100% Safe! But you are probably better off applying pressure to Vega in other ways, unless he overuses wakeup Scarlet Terrors. Vega has a couple options to escape this setup, aside from the obvious backflips. Option select slide should put you in range to punish backflips. Jump-in whiffs if Vega crouches.

-All Sky High Claws in either direction escape your jump-in. EX SHC away will usually punish an O-S slide as it recovers, toward usually whiffs. Depends on your proximity to the walls.
-Normal Flying Barcelona in either direction escapes, including flying towards the mp! EX FBA in either direction gets stuffed. Huh!? Maybe if you aren?t cancelling from a normal, it?s better to escape a corner with plain FBA rather than EX?
-Stuffs ALL Scarlet Terrors? NO WAY!!! Did anyone see this coming?!
-Super and Ultra both escape your safe jump,
but aren?t going to hit you unless you do something stupid

Ryu- Very effective, works like a charm on his Srks, only gets beat by a couple strictly timed crouching normals. Jump-in whiffs if Ryu crouches.

  • A perfectly timed crouching forward or round house will beat your jump-in somehow ; ; Not likely that your opponent will do this though.
    -Stuffs lp Shoryuken. Mp, hp, and EX all get blocked *****Asfddfasdfas has pointed out that reversal SRK’s will hit on aiborne frames so cannot be FADC’d! Only slightly delayed (non-reversal) SRK’s can be FADC’d.
    -Stuffs EX Tatsu
    -Super passes harmlessly under you and your mp connects! Jumping mp is a pretty badass normal, it seems to shrink your hitbox and has fantastic priority.
    -Ultra gets blocked

Zangief- For the most part safe, but only when Gief has no meter, or it?s a free EX SPD! Jump-in hits if Gief crouches.

-Stuffs KKK lariat, PPP lariat whiffs! I?ve noticed in the past that even without safe jumping, jump mp often beats lariat. Your claw seems to go over Gief?s arms and poke him in the head.
-Stuffs normal Green Hands, EX Green Hand gets blocked for a free punish.
-Stuffs normal SPD?s, but loses to EX SPD. Looks like if Gief blocks the jump-in, he is in range to punish pretty easily with lp SPD if your followup isn?t airtight.
-Stuffs Super and Ultra, and you land far enough away to be safe from either one if Gief only blocked your mp.

Sagat- Very effective, just watch out for full Super meter. Jump-in hits if Sagat crouches.

-Stuffs all Knees
-Lp Tiger Uppercut whiffs, all other TU?s get blocked
-Stuffs hk Super, but lk and mk Super will connect

-Ultra gets blocked

Abel- Extremely effective when Abel has no meter, Vega?s mp is only bested by EX command grab. And EX command grab HURTS. Jump-in hits if Abel crouches.

-Stuffs normal Change Of Directions, EX COD absorbs your mp, then gets blocked
-Stuffs all Wheel Kicks
-Stuffs normal Falling Sky, EX Falling Sky whiffs
-Stuffs all rolls except for EX
-Stuffs normal Tornado Throws, **but EX Tornado wins **
-Stuffs mp and hp Super, lp Super is blocked
-Ultra is blocked

Akuma- Works great on Akuma, but be cautious of a wake up Ultra (which can be avoided on reaction). The safe jump technically stuffs Akuma?s Super, however just like Honda?s Oicho Throw, Akuma can input the super as he crouches under your mp and grab you as you land. Obviously, jump-in whiffs if Akuma crouches.

-Like Ryu and Ken, crouching fwd can avoid your attack and catch you as you land
-Stuffs lp Shoryuken, mp is blocked, hp and EX whiff completely.
-Stuffs all Demon Flips and Tatsu?s
-Stuffs Super, however just like Honda?s Oicho Throw, Akuma can input the super as he crouches under your mp and grab you as you land.
-Ultra can be dodged with a jump out or backflip, but will connect if you block or follow the safe jump with an attack

E. Honda- I?m kind of on the fence about this one. The safe jump works perfect on all his reversals, and should be great against most Hondas you fight. But if the Honda knows what to expect after you score a back throw, he gets a free Oicho command grab. Honda can just crouch under your jump mp and Oicho your landing frames. The grab beats all option selects I tried too, including cr hp and backflip. I guess at that point you start mixing up with jump in short instead of mp, to punish the crouch? so maybe it?s not so bad afterall. Again, Jump-in whiffs if Honda crouches.

-Lk Sumo Smash misses on the way up but needs to be blocked on the way down, O-S slide avoids this. All other versions of the butt slam thing whiff completely.
-Reversal Oichos are stuffed, but like I said, he lands it easily if he crouches a moment first.

-Lp Headbutt gets blocked, mp and hp are stuffed. EX Headbutt gets blocked.
-Super and Ultra are both blocked

Dhalsim- Works great against his specials, but never do this when he has Super or Ultra ready. Jump-in whiffs if Dhalsim crouches.

-Lk slide can avoid your attack and hit you as you land
-Stuffs all Yoga Flames
-Stuffs normal Yoga Bursts, EX Burst whiffs
-Super connects
-Ultra trades hits heavily in Sim?s favor

El Fuerte- This setup should work well against most unknowing Fuertes, but like Akuma be aware if they have Ultra. Against a Fuerte that?s wise to your tactics though, I would only recommend trying this under the condition that you option select slide, and I?ll explain why below. Jump-in whiffs if Fuerte crouches.

-Stuffs Quesadilla Bomb
-All Guacamole Leg Throws whiff
-Both forward and back Habanero Dashes avoid your j mp!
Essentially any time you use this setup without O-S slide, you are subjecting yourself to Fuerte?s brutal wakeup shenanigans (as if YOU got knocked down). If he runs on wakeup, he avoids your jump-in and is free to play the tostada/tortilla/whatever guessing game as you land. O-S slide will either beat or avoid most of his options, the exceptions being Gordita Sobat and Sudden Stop. He can still EX Dash to absorb your slide though.
-Super gets blocked
-Ultra can be dodged with a jump out or backflip, but will connect if you block or follow the safe jump with an attack

Gouken- Not a good idea against this character, solely because of his parry. Everything else is gravy, but he can punish your jump strong every time. Jump-in whiffs if Gouken crouches.

-Stuffs all Palm Strikes
-Lk, mk, and EX Tatsu get blocked, hk Tatsu whiffs
-Stuffs normal Demon Flips, EX Flip whiffs on 2/3 of his options, but must be blocked high if he does the dive kick.
-Parries own your face. You want your face to stay pretty, because handsome fighters never lose!
-Super and Ultra get blocked

Ken- I don?t recommend using this setup on Ken much, because it loses to hp SRK. And we all know that if there?s one thing a lot of Ken players like to throw out there, it?s a fierce SRK. Otherwise, it actually works well, but definitely don?t do it if Ken has Super stocked. Jump-in whiffs if Ken crouches.

-Like Ryu and Akuma, Ken can avoid your mp and hit you as you land with crouching forward. Still, strict timing and not a likely scenario unless Ken is totally familiar with this setup.
-Stuffs all Tatsu?s
-Lp and mp Shoryuken completely whiff, EX SRK gets blocked
-Hp Shoryuken rapes you and probably takes your mask and claw and any sense of dignity you have too. Uncertain whether it sleeps with your mom.

-Super will connect
-Ultra gets blocked? but I swear one time I landed it and then couldn?t ever land it again?maybe Super came out instead and I got confused.

Guile- Unfortunately, pretty useless or risky on Guile. Loses to ALL Flash kicks and Super. Jump-in whiffs if Guile crouches.

-Stuffs all Sonic Booms
-Any strength Flashkick beats you
-Super will connect
-Ultra gets blocked

I know that’s alot to take in, maybe a little too detailed? Hope the info helps though :bgrin:


#2

holy shit dude, thanks for all your work lol

didn’t expect this much but this really does help


#3

Excellent post. Thank you for compiling this. I’ll definitely be messing around with it and I’ve already been incorporating it into my game with lots of success!


#4

Wow. Good shit dude, this is very handy.


#5

Uh did you try to see if it’s safe against Sakura’s crouching FP?


#6

Maybe ill try it one of these days. Sounds useful. Good work.


#7

Holy crap I love you for this.


#8

People being able to crouch under it is pretty disappointing. Regardless, you don’t lose anything by trying the safe jump on a vast majority of these characters. If they do basically anything but crouch, then you have an advantage.


#9

Sakura’s cr fp whiffs; you land in time to block anyway, but she is out of range for this move to connect. Vega actually lands pretty much in perfect Kara throw range. That’s why you’re safe from most SPD’s on landing as well, although Gief’s lp spd seems to reach you. So far the only normals I was able to have land on me are the Shotos cr fwd, Dhalsims lk slide, and Chun’s jabs/shorts. I didn’t test normals that extensively though because it would have taken forever.

Yeah thats the problem, only the big characters get hit if they crouch.

BUT! I think I found a pretty cool solution for this. First of all let me reiterate that even though most of the cast can duck your jump-in, very few can actually punish it by doing so. The only one’s I found being Honda with his command grab, Akuma with Super or cr fwd, Ken and Ryu with cr fwd, Chun with jab/short, and Dhalsim with lk slide (possible I missed some). For the characters that can connect normals, the timing has to be perfect and in most cases the safe jump is certainly worth the risk (Dhalsim for sure).

But here’s the cool thing: hardly any player is going to stay crouched as you jump in on them, the exception being someone who is used to playing you and is familiar with this setup and what beats it.

And this is where the fun begins- if your opponent wants to start crouching your safe jump, you can now start a mean mixup game with a jumping normal that I hardly ever use, jumping short. This normal has the range to hit a crouching opponent from backthrow distance and is almost impossible to see coming instead of the mp. From a jumpin lk you are somewhat far away to land some of the big BNBs, but you can still combo into some nice damage like cr. jab > ex fba, or st lk > st rh or cr mp. The j short lands you at perfect range for the far st lk to come out. Cr. mp into ex fba works on some characters, but not Ryu :frowning: Cr mk doesnt combo after j lk either.

Still I doubt you’ll be falling back on this against most players.


#10

Probably one of the most informative and comprehensive posts I have read in this forum. Not knocking any of the other great things people have posted up, but that is an amazing list with really great information. Thanks for doing all that work.


#11

Cool, I just wanted to ask cuz it’s her essential anti-air and I didn’t see it in the main post. Great work here, now I just need to finally implement throwing into my game ~_~


#12

omg. thanks a bunch for this, deuy! you are truly wonderful. would rep you if rep was still around :slight_smile:

i’ll try to begin research on the other safe jump setups later today


#13

Gosh, information overload. Looks like I need to incorporate this into my game.


#14

I’ve repped him in my heart.


#15

wow, well if jumping light kick can get the job done then what’s the problem? Like others have said Deuy, very nice work, very very much appreciated.


#16

Just started incorporating this into my game today. It’s good to know because I tend to do a lot of Kara throws and never really had a sure fire way of following them up. Best moment of using this though was when I was playing my friend’s Ryu in a casual match. As I was doing the safe jump, he did the wake up super and I lept safely over it and stabbing him in the face. Outstanding! Also got a lot of whiffed headbutts when he played Boxer, it was like Christmas.


#17

Haha that’s awesome Eddie.

Glad everyone appreciates the info! Like I said in the other thread, I’ve learned like everything about Vega from these boards so I’m glad I could contribute something back. Thanks to Tatsu for bringing this setup to light.

I think Laxlight mentioned how you can do a similar safejump after landing Scarlet Terror (as long as your opponent techs wakeup). Just backdash and jump in with mp. I was messing around a little with that info and it works awesome! The only problem is that ST can connect at different distances so you get some varying results from the safe jump since the spacing is so crucial.

For example, a deep ST on Ryu made the results even better. The mp hits him on crouch and even avoids his Ultra. But if I did ST from max range on Sagat, his ex TU would land on my jump in. Just something to be aware of, but seems like another solid setup!


#18

thank the japanese vega players if anything! it was just something i noticed from watching their matches


#19

backthrow is probably the most weakest setup for the mp safe jump.the most effective would be hk scarlett terror backdash mp safe jump and izuna drop followed by mp safe jump after a slight pause.i say this because after a couple of rounds it would get painfully obvious that as a vega player,this would be the only set up you can count on after a backthrow.whereas a safe jump after a scarlet terror or izuna would be one of the many setups you could go for,making it a stronger oki game.


#20

I really don’t see how HK scarlet terror is a set up, do they always land at the same distance from you with no regards to where you hit them?