Baiting Ultras With FADC Kikoken

chun-li

#1

I was wondering if anybody has ever tries to bait an ultra that goes through projectiles by doing a kikoken and doing an focus canceling to dash to get out of range and punish. For example, do a kikoken within Abel’s range of Souless and then FADC back hoping he ultras. I just thought of this, and was wondering if you all think its possible or just too impractical.


#2

Not really practical unless you have meter to spare and it’s done at max range IMO.


#3

Waste of meter that could be used in a much more effective way… Its 2 bars (or half a super) wasted as you can’t really FADC on reaction a lot of the time, you have to just do it. If you think what those 2 bars could have been used for damage wise then you start to see that using meter on a bait is kinda dumb imo…

Its like Shoto’s that FADC fireballs to try and sweep you of get closer to you when they know the fireball is not going to hit, I always think those guys need to think before acting. What they just used is a free Ultra (the FADC bars), the next time in the fight they land a hit, it could have been DP, FADC, Ultra. Not a bit of pressure…

That’s my take on it, I think unless its desperation meter management is really important and to try and catch Ultra is pretty hard, I’m awful myself with my meter management and even I wouldn’t use em like this…


#4

I have a different opinion on this.

I have baited a lot of Ultras this way, and in many situations it helps seal a win. It’s all about your judgment of risk vs. reward, as well as how well you read your opponent. Additionally, Chun builds meter exceptionally quickly with the cr.HP xx Legs loop, so I’m not usually afraid to use my meter unless I feel that I need to save for Super.

Shotos that FADC fireballs to sweep – if they miss the link and the sweep gets blocked, I agree it’s a waste. But scoring the hard knockdown allows for continued pressure and increased opportunities for the knocked-down player to make a mistake. I personally think it’s a viable tactic. I do believe there are certain situations where it’s unwise (like if you only have two meters and you have Ultra fully stocked and an Ultra will kill your opponent), but generally I think it’s a good move.


#5

and hazanshu (on block) fadc? i was trying to use it for frame traps, WIP cuz its just theory fighting and lab work… but who knows its like +3 or +4 on block btw


#6

I believe (not sure, but I THINK) that if you FADC out of MK Hazanshu you can actually link things after it. It’s happened to me a couple of times if I FADC’ed out of Hazanshu and tried to throw, I’d sometimes get LK Legs on accident and it looked like it would still combo.

Hazanshu is -1 on block, except MK which is 0 on block. So really you’re only at risk against Ibuki’s 1-frame reversal Ultra 1, and grapplers with 1 frame grabs.


#7

yep, with fadc the adv its about +3, +4, thats what i meant


#8

I like it. I might even be so bold as to FADC forward after a Kikkoken. Especially if they are cornered, so it’s not a complete waste if they don’t bite. That is a really tough punish for them, IMO. I think Chun has the fastest Ultra punish in the game… so if I am not fighting Chun, I would only be afraid if my opponent was psychic. (A Rose tried this on me once… too bad her dash is so slow u_u)

As a Chun player, you would probably be able to sniff out when someone is trying to reaction Ultra one of your fireballs. lol It’s really obvious sometimes… and as you know, it takes a LOT of concentration because you CANNOT mess up. So… It’s a yomi opportunity to take advantage of the fact that they are preoccupied. I think too many people are in the habit of whiffing jabs for 10 seconds like it stays a good idea for that long.


#9

I like Kikoken FADC forward too. It puts the pressure on your opponent to block and then deal with whatever mixup comes afterward, or to jump and hope their air-to-air beats whatever air-to-air I’m going to stick out.


#10

FADC forward technically leaves you safer vs an Ultra in reaction to a kikoken. FADC backward is better for staying out of range though.

I don’t think a good read is ever really a waste of meter as there’s usually a mental payoff as well as whatever damage you gain from it (and hopefully you got your opponent to waste his resources in the process). HOWEVER, FADC fireballs to avoid an ultra punish has been prominent since vanilla SF4, and knowing this, I’ve been content to just sit on charge or “fake” a failed attempt to react to their FB with in ultra. This usually leads to the opponent wasting their meter on an FADC because they suspect that I’m trying to ultra them (and I will eventually… I’m just bluffing first to see how they behave), or they’ll stop throwing so many FBs OR they’ll commit to throwing FBs because don’t feel the threat of your ultra (in some cases they’re really not that threatening if it’s used too soon imo).

Kikoken FADC is good for baiting more than just Ultra though. For some reason, a lot of people want to fire off their reversal EX moves/DPs on wakeup if you decide to use Kikoken FADC foward for added pressure. Unfortunately for them, the only way that’ll work is if I stick out an attack before the kikoken locks them down in blockstun (while they’re able to do the move)… which is never gonna happen.

Also, don’t underestimate how much meter you can build in a round, even when you use it for different opportunities other than getting the highest damage in one opening.


#11

I think it’s only good as a trick up your sleeve when its a close match. You have to be sure that they actually fall for it.


#12

I actually like FADC’d Kikokens, because they create some uncomfortable situations for my enemy while i pressure. If he tries to jump over it i’m usually able to AA, except if he jumps back. If the Kikoken is blocked it may lead to a free jump in on my side. This all works without FADC’ing of course, but it’s just that little more stress it adds to the opponent and allows me to adjust my spacing in tight situations, and there’s of course the safety cancel when you know you’re getting jumped on. This is totally offtopic, btw. :rock:

It works OP, but it’s a guessing/baiting game. Also works in front of your opponent if the ultra has short range.