Balance Patch is coming. What do you want for Honda?

e-honda

#1

For me, fix his invincibility for Light Headbutt. Just make it invincible full body in the first few frames.

That would be it I think. He basically needs anti-air without meter.

Discuss.


#2

not a honda main but me being a dudley main I can say this.

Give him back his ssf4 form but his EX headbutt has upperbody invincibility and his regular headbutts lowerbody invincibility, command grab whiff doesn’t build as much meter.


#3

Do you know anything about Honda? Or do you hate Honda that much

I too would like to see his old SSF4 lp headbutt back, with upper body invincibility, and his jump in mp back the way it was. I really don’t mind the loss of damage and U2.


#4

improve s.hp hitbox and 120 damage at all ranges
something to make ex oichio worth using would be a plus but isn’t necessary

everything else is fine


#5

nah i don’t hate honda cause dudley beats the heck outta him and even in ssf4 where he had the adv i still didn’t hate him. the only thing that bothered me was his upperbody invincibility on headbutt non ex versions that’s it.


#6

The only version that had the upper body invincibility was LP and ex, making it a great anti air without having to use bar. Lower body invincibility doesnt do shit for honda, the only use that I could find it for, was to beat out sweeps… and in that case, you might as well punish a sweep with jab xx HHS counter hit combo.


#7

I would love lp.hb back the way it was but i have no confidence it will return. I am really missing it, it’s been Honda’s signature AA since ST. It’s like only giving DPs invincibility from the waist down.

I doubt even j.mp’s hitbox will come back but regardless, i want that too.

As people have said his damage nerfs were fine but now i have to spend all my meter too? Honda was already easy to abuse without charge and this has just made it harder. Plus we now have to learn new hands combos with EX HHS and to make up for the damage loss and that takes up more meter!

Super gave Honda a comeback tool if you landed HHS or AA lp.hb (I dont count U1 as it can’t be combo’d into, too situational) I have probably combo’d into super no more than 15-20 times so far in AE.

Would also like U1 start up to be faster but this has been asked for since vanilla with no luck :frowning:


#8

Also lp hb is actually useless because it still have a low hurt box at startup so you cant use it well on reaction, that and because most crouching attacks still hit medium.

far st HP and crouch HK need fixes each, crouch HK is Honda worst normal by far with a huge start up and little range.


#9

I would love to bring back the jab headbutt might be a very long shot but I hope they bring it back. Oh the meter the jab headbutt AA would save is more than enough a buff for me.

But seriously I’d think they would just up Honda’s damage output a bit rather than bringing back jab AA considering they want this new reiteration to be rushdown rather than turtling.


#10

I’ll just copy and paste something I posted a few days ago:

I’d like to see a buff to the startup/travel speed of U1 to make it a proper fireball punisher/anti-air. Its WAY too finicky in its current form, especially considering that it doesn’t have full projectile invulnerability and you can’t juggle or FADC into it (you can technically juggle into it, but it’s so situational that it basically never happens).

Honda is probably the only character in the game without a usable sweep. Since it’s unlikely that they’ll make standing roundhouse a sweep again, make crouching fierce a sweep like it was in SF2 (pre-ST). At minimum, something needs to be done about crouching roundhouse. The startup and hitbox is a joke.

Standing fierce should be given a proper anti-air hitbox, especially since jab headbutt no longer functions as anti-air. This was one of his signature moves in SF2 (pre-ST), A3 and CvS2.

Revert the Ultra 2 nerf.

I’d say revert the jumping strong nerf, but I don’t even notice it to be honest.

Revert all of the damage nerfs to every character in general. It’s not fair that a handful of characters get to do Vanilla damage (cough Yun, fart Viper) while the rest of the cast does nerfed AE damage.


#11

Yep, sweep definately needs beefing up or st.hk to knock down a la ST.

I am going to go on record now and say that Honda will probably receive more nerfs than buffs in this coming update.

Sigh, never mind. Im loyal to the fat man so i gotta deal with it.


#12

Standing round house will not get knockdown and sweep won’t be sped up. Honda with combos into sweep becomes too good.

Sweep by the way is not useless - as a meaty on wake up its a frame trap into hands at +2 on block.

Lp headbutt nerf was all about an anti air that could be 500 damage with super imo.

personally the changes he needs are slight damage boosts to Oicho, s.hk knockdown on counterhit, chop as a more viable anti air but trades is fine…right now he is too easy to bully with no meter. leave ultra 2 in terms of frames, just add range and speed up ultra 1 by a few frames. Old request, but lp headbutt with fireball invincibilty.


#13

No, i never thought st.hk would get knockdown but this is a wishlist after all lol. Your’e absolutely right though Tamana about speeding up sweep, being able to combo into it would be too much. Must say though that just because it has a use, that doesnt TECHNICALLY make it useless. But practically its a different story. A sweep is exactly that, a trip to the ground that puts the opponent in untechable knockdown. There is nothing outside of oicho range that does this and as such an opponent gets out free a lot of the time, leaving Honda unable to apply pressure. In a rush down orientated game, this leaves Honda at a big disadvantage. Lets give him a way to viably start some decent oki at least.

IMO, lp hb nerf due to 500 damage with super as AA shouldnt be the reason, although it probably is. If you are dumb enough to jump on a charged Honda with full super meter then that’s your fault. It’s the same rule that applies to every character in the game with full ultra or super. In fact, its worse for Honda players as we have to give up ALL our meter for something most other characters can do with their Ultra or FADC Ultra. One nerf has completely removed Honda’s ability to use super as he needs EX far too much.

Also it used to be we could use our meter for FADC out of HHS. Now, 2 bars for something we cant guarantee damage from? It’s never going to get used. Especially as U2 can be jumped out of. I doubt any Hondas FADC in AE.

Love the idea of s.hk being knockdown on counterhit though. Its Honda’s best long range poke and the fact its slow as shit and can be whiff punished by certain moves/ultras means any buff it can get would be good.

Not sure about lp hb fireball invincibility. Cant see it working in SSF4:AE any more than HDR.

Speed that Ultra 1 up.

In short, get Honda back to the Tank he has always been labelled as. Honda should not be getting pressured by free jump ins, he’s meant to be kept out from fear of him getting up in your face and wrecking you. He’s a defence monster with poor defence options, go figure.

“Easy to keep out, but once he’s in there, he’s in there” - Mike ross


#14

Lp headbutt through projectiles would be really useful to help build some meter in those projectile matches, more than being a pure counter.

On the whole they need to sort out his meter management as not combo to ultra and way less opportunity for super hurts him more than anything. like you said, he needs to be a character you respect for being a tank not someone you can abuse since much as stepping out of place with no meter.

Don’t get me wrong, he still wrecks opponents, but the way he needs to do it now actually has made him more hesitant as a character, when like you say, the game is far more about offence. spacing with him now is so crucial.


#15

I won’t be popular with this, but I’m kinda okay with lp headbutt staying nerfed. I always used a jump back or chop, and while chop often traded it was usually in my favor… until AE.

So thats what I want, I want my chop back. I have no issues with removing the risk of AA jab headbutt to super, but give us a more solid AA normal. I don’t care if it trades, but I want it to hurt consistently, especially for footsies. Its pretty bizarre standing strong does more than fierce dontcha think?

I’m also of the opinion every character in the game should have a fairly threatening ultra for every matchup. Thanks to u1’s buff, its a pretty go-to ultra and I hope that doesn’t change. But his u2 is so bad now, weak damage and hard to hit. I only used tn in matchups where I figured u1 was a hopeless effort, like chun for example. Now its arguably more useless. Really like it to be a zero frame grab, even if they nerf the damage a little for it. At least it wouldn’t be useless!

Or another thought, if they don’t wanna fix our AA headbutt or chop, make buttsplashes better AA. Actually this might be a neat idea, as a whiff is srk-level of punishable. Hope it wouldn’t be worse than -2 though.


#16

Actually I agree Deadsider, if they do not fix LP headbutt his anti air normal needs to become fearsome. I’d contend it would really not be overbalancing the character to fix both but if not one, we’d be able to work with the other.(look at the number of characters with great anti air specials as well as normals… he has neither). He is really underdone in terms of these basic tools to a point where I wonder if the designers have any intention for his playstyle and how is supposed to win.

He is already up against it just by being a charge character. I’d be curious to know where charge characters placed in EVO.

Lets say they don’t fix headbutt in any scenario. What is it to be used for? Pressure on wakeup? It’s still quite unsafe and can be hit out of easily.

When you look at it, the simplest overall solution is to return its AA qualities. Bonuses to making him a more playable character would be to:

  • Make LP headbutt fireball invincible for anti zoning, and invincible/unthrowable on startup. A proper “get off me” move.
  • Improve the startup and speed of the Ultra 1.
    (It’s incredibly galling how many situations this can be started even against a poorly timed jump in or counter hit attempt and its still too slow and easily blocked+punished. I’d go as far as saying he needs a new variant on the move that is an anti air with K, but this isn’t necessary if they just make it on par with other Ultras. Comboability would make us all freak out I’m sure, so not even asking for this.)
  • The Chop should be a more reliable anti-air. Just get rid of the close-up animation version so you can deal with opponents who are directly above you.
  • Ultra 2 fix; keep the command, improve the range.
  • Make Ochios (and other command grabs for other characters too) unthrowable by normal throws. This is just stupid.
  • Make the sweep more usable

#17

I think most Honda players are a special breed. They all agree that the character has lots of flaws, but they always fear he could become too good. Honda has never been able to hang around the top tier guys in this game, back then it was because he was so easy to keep out, but now he is super easy to pressure too. What I would like to see is a Honda that has tools, even if they aren’t the bests, for most situations. I feel that with the latest nerf the best tool he has now… is block. You really, really have to know how to block/tech and that makes for a very boring Honda compared to what he was, that’s all he can do most of the times.

I want him to get buffs on those two fronts firsts. Against projectiles, I think the solution resides in U1. This thing has to be faster, it’s a charge move and currently you have to be very near most plasma chuckers to hit or be psychic from accross the screen. I don’t think this would be overpowered, since the other guy would just lose the option of throwing out fireballs, only if Honda doesn’t move.

Now to buff his defence against pressure and cross ups. EX heabutt does a great job here, but that’s one of the biggest problems with Honda IMO, this thing does everything, provided you have EX. Honda needs other options. I agree about getting back the old AA L.Headbutt, it was never the end all, be all of AAs to start with anyway. What it would do though is stop the other guy fom advancing/jumping again for a second, even if he blocked it. Also, I want change to the chop, but not a better hitbox. Honda was the trade master, he wouldn’t hit you clean, but boy you felt it when you traded with him. That’s what I want to see back. The last thing I would love is for buttslam to have better AA qualities. It’s just not active for long enough. Some characters can jump so high that the move won’t even touch them. This thing is super easy to punish on wiff, couldn’t it just hit something from time to time to compensate?

Other things I’d like to see change is damage. I started playing Honda in vanilla because I liked the “hard to get in, but hits like a truck” style. Now Honda is a mess in the sense that yes, some things still hurt like hell, but others (like st. Fierce and Oichios) feel ridiculously weak and his combos aren’t even all that impressive compared to what the pixies can do right now. I would also want his U2 to go back to a 720 zero frame, but more range than in super.


#18

I think that’s asking for way too much, but then again I don’t think you were too serious on it either

I think a lot of the reasoning why they nerfed jab headbutt was they really tried to make AE more aggressive, which I think a lot of hondas take that to mean “oh great they want people to jump in on me free all day” where I see some of it as trying to convince us to drop the DB charge and footsie more. I personally always played between Ross rushdown and lame turtling so I don’t mind jab headbutt gone as much. But I think improving chop before headbutt is the simpler solution, because it can be applied to both styles.

Capcom seems split on how to handle the big man. He has a defensive style from charge moves and no fireballs, and has a couple things to hit in the air. Yet, we have high damage, high health and possibly the best pressure tool in the game in hands. He can be a hybrid, going offense or defense as the situation or player prefers. The buffs we did get help on our naturally tough zoning matchups, but that’s because they make it easier to get in mostly, encouraging us to get in there and mix it up.

They say they watch and listen to tournaments, and that undoubtably means they’ve seen mike play offense and win, and perhaps are trying to aim that towards the rest of us. I personally like it, but that’s me. So my ideal fix is: give chop 120 damage on ground, 140 AA but keep the trading it does. It’ll make us feel safe to drop a charge, worry an opponent when we footsie and let our health and trades keep things exciting.

Oh and one more fix. Make it trade with chun li dammit lol


#19

Of course I don’t think we would get all of that, I’m even pretty sure all we’ll have is some more nerfs and something completely lame as a buff like a slightly better hitbox on j.LK.

I’m all for promoting aggressivness with Honda, I rarely play the ubber turtle, except when faced against other non projectile chargers, but that’s the match up and yes it’s boring to death. The problem though with aggressive Honda is that sooner or later you’ll get knocked down and that is where the real pain comes in.


#20

So I only read half of this then got bored.

  1. Keep Jab Headbutt the same, It helps quite a bit with characters who have good footsies. I’m not too sure who most of you play but Headbutting over Akuma’s sweep is really nice. Learn to use his normals to AA people and maybe some meter management. This game has been out for 3 years now. :X
  2. DO NOT Make his Jab HB go through fireballs, this isn’t HDR and personally it’s freaking cheap.
  3. Ultra does not need to be made faster, I react and plan out my Ultra’s just fine for AA and Projectile use. Fucking practice.
  4. Standing RH shouldn’t knock down but Cr. HP should but also come out a bit slower if it did.
  5. Standing Fierce needs it’s damage back, I can still use it effectively but the trades don’t seem to be in our favor anymore. When the first 3 frames does 120 and anything after does 80 something is wrong. Just balance it out at 100 and we’ll call it even.
  6. Make U1 go full screen, It sucks reacting to something then have your ultra stop before you can make it down there.
  7. If you make U1 faster make HHS only give plus 6 or 7 on hit so you can’t link into Ultra.
  8. Make Ex- Oicho have some type of bonus property besides Jab Oicho Range and 190 damage for me to justify spending one meter.
  9. Take away stand fierce into Super and revert it to Vanilla damage (Wish list. :|)

All kidding aside now, I found maybe one or two valid points in here but everything else just seems to be the same old bitching from last year and the same people refusing to step their game up. /Smoke Cigar