Basic Frame Data question


#1

I “felt” like I had the jist of frame data a few weeks for now, however, I think I’ve overlooked something in particular.

The fastest startup moves in SSF4 are 3 frames correct? (some jabs and dragon punches)

so, under that assumption, **does that mean you can punish moves that have -3 frame disadvantage on hit or block? How about those that are -1 or -2 on block?
**
For instance, Honda buttslams are all -2 or -1 on block. Are they safe then? I do understand that I cannot continue a block string off of those, because if I poke, a jab or 3 frame reversal will beat them? correct?

Which brings me to my next question:
**If you have a 3 frame reversal, then do moves that are -2 or -3 on block act as frame traps for you?

I.e. ryu’s hurricane kick (hk) is -2 on block. Ideally, my opponent should be able to jab me and I will be forced to block. However, since I have an invincible 3 framer, (dragon punch) can i use that on recovery from the hurricane kick and will it beat out my opponent’s jab?**

I ask these questions because I consider myself very good at blocking and teching. Unfortunately, I find myself blocking and teching entire strings for a full game and hardly ever counter attack. I do not understand when I can counterattack in matches and i’m trying to figure that out.


#2

If you can’t reversal well in this game…

anyways, the fastest start up is 0 frames (Command Grabs)

Q1. Yes you can reversal a -3 on block with a SRK, ie. Abels CoD

Honda’s head butt is safe on block…most of the time, except by some supers. if you jab, any move that has less then 5 frame start up will beat jab

Q2. I don’t really get the questions but anyways, SRK will beat jab because the jab is active on the SRKs invincibility frames, and the SRK is active during/after the jabs active frames.


#3

yes, if you have a 3f move than you can punish a move that is -3 on block/hit if you’re in the correct distance. -1 or -2 you can’t unless you have a move that is 1f or 2f. there are a few, but they’re usually grapplers and a few supers.

yes, honda’s buttslam is generally safe if you’re not facing those characters.

no it’s not a frame trap cause you’re at -2. think of it like this. your opponent recovers 2 frames before you and does a jab (let’s say 4f) the frame that he recovers. now you do a cr. lp w/ honda the moment you recover which is also 4f, but since he started his jab before you (you’re at -2 after a buttslam remember), you’ll get it.

a frame trap would be something like this: ryu’s cr. mp, cr. mp.

since cr. mp leaves ryu at +2 on block and has a start-up of 4. so you recover 2f before your opponent and do another cr. mp the moment that the first cr. mp recovered. when your opponent recovers your cr. mp is already on the 3rd frame and if he throws out anything that doesn’t have i-frames then he’ll get it.


#4

First off, any move that is -1 should be safe from everything. Moves that are -2 are safe from everything but SPD’s. Moves that are -3 are no longer considered safe, but may be safe against certain members of the cast with no 3 frame moves.

If you block a move that is -1 on block and you do a reversal 3 frame jab it will beat your opponent’s 3 frame jab if he does it as soon as he recovers. This is because he takes 1 frame to recover, then 3 to jab for a total of 4. You only take 3 to jab. Moves used in frame traps should ideally have a 1 or 2 frame window so that they will still beat jabs. That means that a move that is +2 can be followed with a 3 frame jab as a frame trap. The jab hits on the opponent’s 1st frame of startup if they did anything. Similarly, a 6 frame move can be used after a move that is +4 or +5 as a frame trap.

Moves with invicibility sort of throw a wrench in the works. If you have an invincible DP, you can break frame traps. Since DP’s are invincible in startup, it doesn’t matter that your opponent’s jab is active while the DP is in startup, as it can’t hit you then. Your opponent’s jab goes active and you have no hit box. When your DP goes active your opponent will get hit with it. Depending on how long your opponent’s move stays active and how many invincible frames your DP has, you may trade or you may hit them clean.

Also, headbutts are NOT safe. Frame data says they range from -8 on EX to -16 for fierce. The trick is finding a move that will reach. Frame data says that HK buttslam is -3, so it is jab punishable. All others are -2 and are SPD punishable or DP punishable if honda does anything except block when he recovers.


#5

thank you for the info.It clarifies a lot of what I’m asking.

I realize that a frame trap is something that gives u frame advantage and then will counter hit if they try to poke (like a medium or somethign following sakura’s ex tatsu on block) but i’m wondering in particular if Ryu’s tatsu works the same way. its -2 on block, but like we said, the dp has invincible frames on startup so in theory, if the opponent jabs, the dragon punch should beat the jab?


#6

the dp will beat the jab cause it has i-frames.