Battling the Corner

makoto

#1

This is currently the biggest problem i’ve been encountering as of late…

When you find yourself on the middle of the screen, or forcing someone to a conrner, you have the momentum, its undeniable… because you obviously have the room to dash in and work your rushdown… However when you arent at an advantage… hell even when its neutral… youll be jumping back throwing mediums since their so good, i cant imagine a good footsie game w/ her due to her walk… you lose even more ground you find yourself cornered, the worst spot to be in especially for makoto.

Mainly this is due to the fact that your best forward movement is dashing… i dont walk with her, its either dash, backdash, or jump… hell she has the air priority to get away with repetetive jumps…

The drawback to my movement skills leads to me getting knocked in a corner, and anytime im put there, i am lost in how to get out. Makoto has no good moves on wakeup, this hurts her even more(also hurting me is the fact that my most constant opponents are Dudley, Yun, and Ken.

Also consider the fact that her ticks have slow recovery, combine that with her stegasaurus waddle, i cant poke myself out of a corner… even when trying to do so… i’ll get thrown… DP’d or parried for 30% of my life…

Hayate on wakeup works sometimes, but hell, do u wanna risk the fram disadvantage? Dont get me started on Fukiage…

Frankly, I’m interested in knowing if anyone has any useful tips in dealing with being cornered, and the best ways to work out of it, and build momentum.

PS… Haunts ur PM box is full

peace out


#2

there are plenty of options:
block until they jump then dash away
block until they jump then EX DP + followup
c.mp -> karakarakusa
a blocked poke -> karaEXchop (lkXXqcf+2p)
a hit poke -> dash and back+throw (put them in corner)
a blocked or hit move -> karakusa or karakarakusa into hayate or super if you got it


#3

That shit is real.
Stegasaurus waddle… lol, funny stuff

If you’re knocked down in the corner sh1t gets complicated. I got some braindead advice like:
parry sumtin,
or option select
She has no super-less wakeups, which sucks.

When standing with your back to the corner, it’s hard too, if not harder. I think you gotta know your characters, keep an eye out for laggy moves that put you at frame advantage. that… or alternate parry attempts with blocking, until you turn blue and hear “pesh”, then proceed to turn the tables.

lk xx EX Oroshi is a good way to get out from under the pressure. It’s quick, beats parry->punish, beats crouching, is pretty safe.


#4

First of all, I would have to say, think of her dash as a special move. I do not use it as liberally as most people do anymore, becuase I found myself running into things after people have played me a while.

I used to think the walk was useless because it was so slow, but you have to remind yourself what it is percived as from the other persons point of view. They dont see you as a threat when you are walking slowly at them, and that is a huge advantage. I have found myself able to creep into thier circle of attack even more safley than using the dash sometimes. I have also seen when I creep twaords someone, they are inclined to come twoard me for whatever reason. Maybe it makes them anxious to attack. You have to be patient with the walk, and then use the dash to get in only at key points. Suprise them with it, save it until the siutation calls for it. Hold back until they force you to pull the good shit out. Make them work for it.

the reason I say this, I used to get knocked into the corner when I was dashing around all over the place. I would simply just run into things and get knocked down. If you want to keep yourself out of the corner, use her dash to dash under people and make sure you are never in that position.

If you are in that position, just be patient. There isnt much anyone can do if you are blocking low the whole time. Just watch out for throws and UOH into super, but honestly, if you cant catch that sort of thing on reaction, you just need to practice more anyway.

Most of the time, esspicly with shotos, they will try to jump at you to cross you up or something like that. That is your opening to get the hell out of there. No one is going to sit there for too long just pounding you with poke strings w/o trying to jump at you and/or give you some sort of way to get out of there. Seconds can turn into hours when you are in the corner. just be patient, stay sharp, and look for your opening.

Her c. jab can be okay to get people off of you, but as simple as it sounds, just keep cool and block until they lose thier rhythm and then jump out of there, dash out of there, do whatever it takes.

I just find it easier to escape with her with a dash than to try to fight my way out of that positon. I dont think her moves are really meant to be used in that kind of situation, so I dont really force it. People will freak out when you escape anyway, for the most part. “Oh shit, she is loose again.” They are going to get reckless and try to put you back in the corner because they were under the impression that they had the advantage while you were there. At this point, just capitlize on thier mistakes.

I would just practice keeping people off of you, rather than practicing what to do in a corner. I think you’ll have more success if you find what keeps people out of your range of attack. Keep your attacks varied and know thier distance and people will be less inclined to rush in on you and toss you in the corner.


#5

oh yeah i cleaned out my inbox, sorry.


#6

thanks for all the help…

although blocking isnt that big of a problem with me, but moves like dudley’s F+RH and kens B+Fwd really hurt, and they shake you, to the point where you lose your focus and just about everything goes against you.

It’d dudley that worries me the most… he stuffs just about everything i could throw out with a Firce or a F+Fwd. and then i stop attacking, then i lose the edge…

i dunno i think i just got traumatized because of all the parry traps i’ve had to deal with… trying to poke out of the corner…

i guess i will have to learn some patience, and try not to panic when things start going against me… ill have to use her walk more often also


#7

I guess it’s really a mental thing than anything else. If you are like “oh no, I am fucked now” soon as you are in the corner, or “I cant really do anything against him because he has such and such move” its already over. Just learn to recognize what your opponent is trying to set you up for and then defend accordingly. Part of getting better is getting hit by certain things and then seeing why you got hit and not letting it happen again. Just dont put up a mental block thinking that certain situations are impossible to get out of or defend against.

I would also like add that makoto’s f+short is underrated. From my experinces, it is a great advancing move that is pretty safe over all and somewhat annoying to the opponent when used correctly…


#8

THE BEAST IS LOOSE!

In the corner, I often resort to C.Short -> Hayate, or a straight Hayate, or jump straight up -> parry. Sometimes I wakeup-karakusa.

Doing the wakeup-Hayate (or C.Short) early in the match lets you psyche them out into blocking you on wakeup. And best to do the silly stuff early on, when it doesn’t matter as much, just to scare them into caution for when the match gets critical.

Also, only do it if they’re out of throw-range. =P

Oh yeah. I found out that Makoto’s standing Roundhouse works pretty well against divekicks. hehehe.


#9

just block/tech until you get a chance to get out, everyone has holes in their shit, her dash is a great tool but most opponents will be in advantage to force A and B situations once their strings ends(them knowing you only have certain options left from there on). just make sure the “coast is REALLY clear” before making a break for it.

its not like you can block during the dash and makoto has good priority, for the opponent, waiting/dashing back/spamming a slight second for you wouldn t be out of the question(if you were ken and your opponent has good mobility with the priority to back it up, cornered now…you know he wants out, all you have to do is wait/spam for him to make his move and react accordingly), locking your ability to move from there wouldn t be THAT hard, you d have a better chance escaping by their fault in defense than just straight dashing out(i.e.- EX chop, if you have to move forward for it to even be blocked, watch out for throw). poor makoto, now that i think about it, this would be a bad place for her to be.

haunts- most ken players won t cross you up unless your already on the floor getting up, straight up jumping at them while they can still stand would be too low pay off to risk letting her out.


#10

dont take anything i say the wrong way, i am trying to respond the best i can, i am just having a little difficulty understanding what you are talking about…

but…

hmm, in my experinces waiting it out until they get impaitent then jumping or dashing out is most effective. When the match is reset, makoto will have the natrual advantage at that point, imo.

I guess you are saying that if ken or whoever has you cornered, they are going to wait for you to do something stupid like try to attack them while they are out of range becuase you feel cornered, or strait up dash into low short x2 super or something.

So what if the Makoto player is more patient than that? If you wait out all the bullshit spamming and mind games and can keep yourself composed until they jump or do a move with a lot of recovery, you can most definatley escape if you need to.

I agree many Kens will only cross you up when you are on the ground, but you have to relaise not all kens play exactly the same. The kens I encounter are very agressive and try to cross me up at anytime they can just to confuse me. Esspicly after low shorts and things like that. Also, if you parry the cross up in the corner, sometimes when you try to counter attack you will be facing the wrong way (happend to me last night, and plenty of times before that). Sometimes they will jump after me to try to hit me becuase i try to jump away from a dash -> throw after low short x2. It’s all mix up and mind games, really.

But what I am getting at here, when they have you int he corner, eventaully they are going to get frustrated that you are not going to give them any openings so they will be forced to try to make some openings. They might predict you will jump so they will jump trying to hit you. Or they think you might move forward a bit so they might try to cross you up. Or they might think you will try to dash so they will do a low forward in which you block and can jump out reltalite or whatever. A million and one things can happen, and there are a million and one ways you can react to what they do. im just saying, i think the most effective way to make sure you come out of the situation w/o losing too much life is to just wait until you can escape.

I have adapted to this style of play pretty recently to be honest with you. At Final Round I fought Crow in the finals and he was a little more patient than I was mid screen, but eventually he would push me in the corner and start pressuring me. I tried every trick in the book to try to hit him while I was in that positon, but I wasnt making good trades. Id get a jumping RH, c. rh, maybe a standing strong or something when I attacked, but then hed get cross up -> low short x2 super when he attacked. he jumped away from karakusas and i genreally wasnt in the position to do any real damage. I was just getting murdered. Later into the set i started to dash out but it was too late really, I had already lost my rhythm and the mental edge over all. Wish I would have seen the easy solution to the problem early on rather than trying to just get a hit here and there…

I do agree with Arlieth that jumping strait up and parrying isn’t too bad either. Getting reset into super fireball sucks though, so watch out. :confused:


#11

i won t, i don t play her, we don t need to get deep into theory fighter, i m just pointing out obvious things that are known to come out despise a player being “aggressive” or not. and yeh, from a regular stand point, makoto is in advantage to pit her strengths.

nah i wasn t saying they ll just sit there and wait, if it happens like that, why would the makoto player need to fall all over themself and buy into the basic bait? she can still block, she can still tech, that point is- she has few ways to use her strengths in that situation(to help her get out), against ken.

i said “it wouldn t be out of the question” cause for ken, thats a viable way to keep her there/make her fear a set retalliation. if the ken was jumping, why else would mrquotes ask how to battle the corner?
the point is if the ken didn t get impatient and gave YOU that lil bit by jumping(to him, fishing around), you wouldn t have a safe way out or any way to make him jump, end of story.
so an “aggressive”, impatient ken just handed her something the makoto player didn t earn(a neutral standpoint, or being far enough from the corner to not have their back against it), IMO not a good ken then.

see thats the thing though, good players rarely get impatient. even fraustrated, good players will keep the same strategy no matter how tiny the advantage, cause its the safest road and they already know whats left for you to do from there. players who let go of that tiny advantage for something bigger/fatter are being risky, risk = no guarantee. IMO aggressive players usually get their arsenal nullified to nothing against high calibur players, rather easily too. thats just from my experience though, its not law.
aggression doesn t come in 2 forms either, being aggressive could be pinning you there wacking you everytime you try to dick your way out, doesn t mean he has to stick to you to be aggressive.

eh, but then again its a big world, i m sure somewhere is a player that takes unneccary(bad spelling) risks and wins in tournies

EDIT- let me correct myself, knowing makoto, she can probably wait, then poke into XX…nobody is perfect and i doubt even every good ken can sit there for 97 seconds like life and death.


#12

i was in school thinking bout this… read the thread this morning :stuck_out_tongue:

i was thinking, if Ken is just waiting what about:

ex Axe kick… tigerknee it… maybe a fake hayate in front?


#13

because even fake hayates have some frames of recovery, and a ken will find that as an opportunity to do c. watever into super…

althought recently i learned a fake hayate cant be thrown until fully canceled…


#14

With all due respect, this isnt really theory at all. We have some very good 3s players in the area, and I try not to post anything that hasent actully worked for me against these people. I am just offering insight on what has worked for me in actual fights, and what continues to work on a consistant basis. With that being said, do what works best for you. Dont take my word for it, its just what i have experinced directly… :slight_smile:

one thing though, you say top players do not get frustrated or impatient, but I see that everyone is human. I think it really has less to do with wether or not he is a top player, but rather how you react to a siutation regardless of who you are playing against. again, dont let them get the mental edge. If you think “well, this guy is a top player, he wont crack.” then you’ve already lost.

Of course he is going to stick with what works, which is not very risky, you are right. But on the other hand, that is what makes your opponent predictible.

im just saying, be patient, look for you opening, and get out of there. If it takes an ex chop to do it, thats great, but ive found eventually after enough throw breaks and blocked high/low strings, they will finally try something else like empty jump in, jump in late attack, or try to cross you up. Its not really what you do to achive your escape, its just make sure you arent sitting in the corner trying to -fight-, becuase thats not where you need to be fighting with Makoto.

Furthermore, there are plenty of things you can do to bait jumps and what not. Jumping strait up is good, among many other things. I could list all the things I do to bait jumps or whatever, but i am more inclined to discuss general stratgey rather than specific moves, mainly becuase each fight can vary so much, and again, what works for me might not nesccarly work for anyone else. Also, getting stuck on one move or set up can be a crutch. Your opponent can adapt and then what do you do?

So, just be patient and deal with each situation individualy. I personally go into each fight with the big picture in mind: “what does it take for me to win?” If I just keep that in focus, everything else will flow natrually.

With makoto those two things are:

a) put my opponent on the ground.

and

b) try to never be in the corner.


#15

you got some good points, i didn t find anything we can relate to until your last post.
getting into this without writing a eyesore would be tough considering i don t play makoto, so the person that i am…i m just gonna say you have good manners and continue to lurk:D


#16

A little late, but…

If you’re cornered, your opponent will find themselves in two positions: Attempting to cross you up, or backing off and baiting you into dashing into a C.Strong/Forward. Smart Kens would do the C.Strong. This only occurs if the initial throw/C.Short pressure fails, because after a certain point, Makoto gets frame advantage and is once again able to poke her way out.