Better Throws?


#1

A lot of people hate that SSF4 has too many defensive options; one of these being the way throws are performed in this game, with two buttons which the opponent can tech by pressing those two buttons at the same time. The problem with this method is that it can cause the game to slow down as one player loses momentum.

The only other completely different way I know of in popular fighting games is the old “forward and attack” method used in Street Fighter 2. This way is much better for allowing players to build momentum and keep it. However, if both players go for the throw at the same time, the winner of the encounter is random.

So I’m asking, is there a better system used in any other fighting games that allows good offensive play without chance being involved?


#2

UMK3 - No Techs, speed of game, look at “run jab shenanigans” ect. The persona APPLYING the pressure has a better chance at grabbing. Look at Robot Smoke, Kabal, Sheeva grab stuff. No block/hit pause, and no attempt animation.

Tekken - Breaks have to be done by 1,2 or 1+2. If you cant do it by reaction then more than likely you’re getting grabbed, and even if you use the duck out method, you could eat a mid/hop kick, or try an attack and have it crushed. Also grabs can be done seamlessly, and the game doesnt have block/hit pause so the attempt is not so obvious as SFIV.


#3

Same time= both players need to be at their throw range and press at the exact same frame. Most of the time it doesn’t happen and even when it does I think you get a softened throw. For the most part the throw system in ST works just fine. Guilty Gear is another game with overall good normal throws. The throw option selects in GG are mostly offensive rather than defensive, so you can combine throw attempts in your rushdown.
For example let’s say you play Chipp. You dash in close-> faultless defense cancel to stop the dash->6S+H. Either you get a throw, or if the opponent can’t be thrown you get a close Slash, which is fast and give you frame advantage. Of course an invincible move would defeat both options, so while the those option selects are great they are not too good.

Tekken throws are sub-mediocre for the most part. A universal tool with a lacking risk/reward ratio. (If you expect them you can hop kick or if you are quick- crouch and do a ws launcher, and if you just react you can still evade them using the hand animation (easiest to distinguish the 1+2 ones from the rest) or just plain guessing.
Unless you are playing King or Roger, characters with 10 frame 2 hand animation command throws that do huge damage. These specific throws are a great tool.


#4

About the random ST throw thing: CvS2 also has one button throws, but if you throw at the same time your both get this “woa, we were both going for a throw at the same time so now we act all surprised about it” animation.


#5

^ This.


#6

Not really “at the same time”; CvS2 has a fairly sizable tech window. Better example would be the later GG games (maybe just GGAC?) where the window to tech is like 2 frames. Weird that the OP presents this false dichotomy between SF4 and SF2 throws and doesn’t factor SF4’s massive tech window into the equation…

That said I don’t really have a problem with a large soften window like ST’s (13 frames I think, larger than SF4’s) so long as you get guaranteed damage either way. In ST you get half damage and no knockdown, good way to do this in SF4 would maybe be to make softened throws do full grey damage + no knockdown.

Tech system isn’t all that sucks about about SF4 throws though. Crappy range, crappy damage, startup all contribute to throws being lousy. Throw HF-style throws into the game (massive range, huge damage, no startup, untechable) and I bet the game becomes a lot more offense-oriented and interesting. Even the one property of SF2 throws I would usually never argue for the return of - their being able to grab you out of jump startup, thus forcing you to reversal to get out of ticks - would be mitigated by the ease of doing reversals in SF4.

While this would make the up-close mixup game far less complex than all the shit you have to do to actually make mixups work in SF4, I’d argue that up-close mixups shouldn’t be complex - it’s a reward for getting in, so make it a simple mixup that greatly favors the attacker and focus on making the effort to actually get into that situation the complex part.


#7

I’ve felt that SFA3 throw system was the best:

Thrown no tech - Full damage.

Thrown with late tech - partial damage and air tech. Character thrown can be on the defense and hit out of tech throw, and, has option to roll or air tech.

Thrown with perfect tech - option to roll or air tech with no damage. Character thrown has option to attack of air tech.


#8

Minus the puny damage, the slow startup, and the meter gain on whiff?


#9

That doesn’t sound right. If you are thrown, and you tech - as in perform a Tech. Bonus! you will take damage which will vary from none at all (Rolento’s kick throw), reduced damage (Ryu’s punch and kick throw, most holds), through to the same amount of damage if you did not Tech Bonus! (Nash’s punch throw, Karin’s punch throw). After a Tech. Bonus! you are in an invincible state (except from Gen’s air throw Super) and cannot roll or air recover.

You cannot roll after you are thrown, and air recovering after a throw has no effect on the throw’s original damage.


#10

Personally I’m partial to Guilty Gear’s throws, which are inputted as 4 or 6 HS while next to the enemy. 0F startup with a 2F break window and (generally) lead into a B&B combo. However, they prorate pretty heavily (Millia’s ground throw, for instance, is 40%).


#11

Yes, to all of that.

Crap. It’s all vague now after you said all that. I need to play that game again now.


#12

1 button throws suck cause you can mash out a tech, its terrible. Even 2 button throws suck cause you can mash tech as well, crouch tech. In ST if you tech fei longs throw where he flips over you, you give him a fucking crossup attempt so soften throws do have problems.

IMO, only 1 game has done throws properly and its tobal 2. I know its a 3d game but that doesn’t mean that the throw system in that game can’t be converted into 2d stuff.

[media=youtube]WMiPTvRy_5k#t=1m31s[/media]

When you grab someone, you initiate an offensive throw situation. You can do a hi\lo series, push\pull them around and alternatively still be able to throw. Depending on the throw if its countered, the player countering the throw now gains offensive throw advantage. The “offensive” throw situation only happens briefly, something like 30-40 frames. If you don’t input any attacks, the opponent can easily counter the neutral throw stance and gain the the “offensive” throw advantage.

There is no bobo mash tech system and forces the opponent to actually play defense. The throw game is more evolved since you can do other things with it and nothing is free. All throws can be teched but they all have different windows. You can counter push\pull and you can block the hi\low mixups from throw.

Very easy to convert that to a 2d throw system and it could even be expanded upon.


#13

Good throw system really depends on the game itself and largely depends on preference. Personally the only thing that bothers me about throws in SF4/SSF4 are game system decisions in the game itself. 3S’s Throws were perfect to me personally, techable both during and when on the ground and there’s no 1/2/3 jab/short guessing games associated with throw timing to force you to mash throws.

Throw systems are all preferential anyways, there’s no perfect throw system that everyone will like. I’d play a fighter if there weren’t universal throws at all (command throws can still exist since you can’t tech them anyways) if you used a different system to break a guarding player (like guard break), but that’s just me.


#14

I’m not sure about IaMP, but the two more recent Touhou fighters have no normal throws.

It’s eh.


#15

one button throws suck dick, so do throws that take off half the health bar


#16

There’s nothing wrong with SF4’s throws.


#17

There was only a single character in IaMP with an actual throw, lol. Anyway, I personally prefer SC and VF’s throw systems, where there’s a metagame to breaking throws.


#18

Venom 6Slash+Hardslash is too good.

jkjk

I prefer one button throws, but, that’s just me… I mean, they have a built in OS, in that if they jump/walk out of throw range/etc, you get whatever normal is associated to the throw button, opposed to throw wiff… This is much better for keeping offensive momentum IMO.

On top of that, one button throws are better for frame traps… Having to tech with (what is usually) a heavy attack button, means staggering poke strings more likely to pick up counter hits, or create a bigger wiff punish situations.