Blackheart or dr doom?


#1

Through out history, there have been tier discussions: “Cyke vs IM”, What’s the top tier?" etc… Most of those threads and their posts give a list that don’t inculde bh on it, but they include doom. I know some people hae their own opinions on tiers, but allot put doom on their list.

Now, i’m a Strider player, wc means i am also a doom user… But i also pick BH sometimes, what i want to ask is why do you think Doom is better than BH?

From my experience, BH has better match ups against the gods, except against cable. Doom, straight up gets raped by the gods, and also has problems against cable. Doom can’t protect himself unlike bh in close comebat, etc… BH on the other hand has fast normals with goo reach and he can protect himself in air and close combat. He also has better tools against runaway, and rushdowns. So why is Doom ranked better by the majority? Just my opinion though…


#2

I beg to differ on all ov this…but I’m also not saying that either ov them are ranked higher than the other.

As far as BH is concerned his worse match up is Storm, ppl these days besides the experts play BH haphazardly and tend to spam certain moves that in turn get them killed. BH has weapons against the god tier, but ppl just don’t utilize them at times…go to the BH forums for more info…

Doom’s worse matchup is Sent., unlike BH he can rushdown with some skill/execution and take on any ov the God 4 as long as, AGAIN, ppl don’t spam certain moves…I won’t say much else on Doom except direct you to the Doom forum and read from there…

In closing ov that, they both have their advantages and disadvantages against the God 4…but they both should not be taken lightly…

As far as Doom vs BH is concerned, they both have weapons that can be used against each other:

BH has InfernoxxHoD and FP Dark Thunder if Doom gets stupid and throws photons all day. Getting in on BH is not easy when it comes to experts cause they’ll KNOW how to keep you away properly using poke strings and their demons (not abusing RK demons either). BH can rushdown to a degree, but it won’t help if Doom switches modes and plays keepaway as well…The BH infinite is also key in this matchup, especially since the majority ov the Doom players tend to take to the skies a little too often.

Doom has the j.FP Butter Gun if BH gets stupid and throws sj.demons all day. Though his air photons are nearly useless here, his ground photons can do some justice for him in this matchup. Doom’s rushdown game (while dependant on the skill ov the player) easily trumps BH’s rushdown/zone game…but like I said before…if the BH player knows how to stay away from you with demons then Doom will run into issues here. Doom’s corner infinite, while can only be done in the corner, is death for BH if he finds himself in the corner with nowhere to go (since he’s a huge target, and the APA at the end ov the combo will ALL CONNECT!!).

Matchup-wise I’d have to lean towards Doom on this one…but in general I wouldn’t give either ov them the choice cause they both are equal in their own distinct ways IMHO…and I play them both so I should know…


#3

Blackheart craps all over Dr.Doom! Doom can no longer use the cheesy superjump & laserfingers tactic all day long either, BH will knock him out of the air every time and into a super. Also works well for storm users when they take to the air in order to spam Fp to build meter.

His aerial game is faster and better too. Blackheart has always been a good anti-doom.

BH > Doom


#4

I think Bh gets owned by cable, he still has options aganst storm.


#5

Almost everyone has a tough match when Vs Cable, but still i think BH does about as good as Doom in that area too.

Back on topic, a Good Blackheart can be an absolute beast, sending so much crap flying at you and halting advances. A Good doom can be very effective too, but not to that degree in my opinion.

And Bh Vs Doom directly, Blackheart wins out in that one.

Ever tried T-bone with Strider? The cheese that team produces is scary, especially if you’re good at breaking someone’s block.

A player at my local arcade uses Strider/Tron. Pretty much just waits to build 5 meters, switches to strider, spamming ouroboros to lock the opponent into the corner and assisting with tron after breaking their block. Sleazy tactics but pretty devastating. I don’t even bother to play a “reasonable” team against that crap anymore.


#6

bh vs. cable depends largely on cable’s assist.

cable + capcom is prob bh’s worst nightmare, but bh/cyc against a cornered cable + non-AAA = locked down cable and impending loss.

it’s all about purposefully un-synchronizing your sj. rh with Cable’s sj’s.

about bh’s rushdown weaker than doom, i have a lot of trouble believing that. bh/cyc and bh/capcom will run circles around any of doom’s best rushdown teams (and I’ll play anyone to prove it). BH’s 2 huge advantages in rush down over Doom are his stupidly long pokes and angle of sj. rh (Doom has nothing to rushdown at the same angle).


#7

doom also has :k: throw mixups…


#8

Yeah but to knock him outta the air on Photon Array you usually have to take a damage trade not in your favor, so its kinda like, better to block or avoid it in most cases. You would have to send out the move like before you even knew if he was gonna photon array to not get hit by some pink shit.

Dooms double snap also gives him alot in this argument, as most god tier vs. solo dooms either end real quick or end up getting evened by a 2x snap.


#9

Both BH and Doom have very bad matches vs the top 4. However Doom wins out cause his match vs BH is in his favor. Jump back fierce for Doom owns blackheart.


#10

I beg to differ on this one…or have ppl forgotten that BH has a full-screen dash to counter this if ppl get too happy with j.FP. I usually catch Doom’s with full dash-in df.FP launcher xx randomness…it’s that easy…


#11

both have bad matches agianst the top 4, but i think BH has a better game against storm, sent, mags, than doom. Doom gets rushed and stomped down, he has no tools what so ever to help him in close confrontations. Nothing to defend him from jump ins, and his normals/fierces are too slow. W/c is why he gets rushed down badly. BH on the other hand has J.hp DEMONS, faster normals and his tail thingy. He can control the matches better than doom.


#12

I could go either way on the characters in and of themselves, but ultimately I find BH a lot more viable in real games for a pretty basic reason: most of the game these days has turned into Mag/Storm/Sentinel. Doom has an absolutely horrible time with all three of those characters, while BH can fight pretty well against Mags and Sentinel, at least. If he’s got the lead he’s not in just horrible shape against Storm either, and even if he doesn’t his assist behind Sentinel can make life miserable for her. She already has a beeyotch of a time rushing Sentinel down, and BH assist means she has troubles running away from Sent, too. Throw that together with BH’s defense and BH/Sent/AAA DHCs and I think BH is ultimately more powerful these days.

On the other hand, there really isn’t that much Doom is truly great for any more. If somebody has issues against Strider, sure… but that’s about it. The rocks assist isn’t nearly as good as it used to be with Storm-A, Cyclops, and Psylocke assists all over the place, and even Sent-Y is pretty bad for Doom. It’s only much good with Strider or if somebody depends too much on Commando to keep people away. It can sort of be good with Magneto but who really wants to play Mag/Doom over Mag/Sent? Cable/Doom/Commando is still kind of ghetto good, Storm/Sent/Doom isn’t so bad… but… yeah. Strider isn’t very good without either an AAA or meter. If you play Strider/Doom/AAA then either Doom or the AAA is the only battery you’ve got (or else you just have to play Strider on his own and build his own meter… which he’s not just awful at doing but it’s not overwhelming). If you play Sent/Strider/Doom then you’ve got the battery but then you’ve got issues with close range and overhead control if the opponent ever gets out of the lockdown.

So… yeah. BH over Doom for me, and it isn’t even a close argument.


#13

seems like BH is very dependent on assists (but hell, so is strider and he’s a pain in the ass). but wtf do i know, i never tried to use BH seriously.


#14

BH does not need any notable/cheap assists behind him to work well. He can kick ass with just something like Guile AA or other average assist that distracts/knocks the opponent back.

I know a Spidey/BH player who uses Web ball assist, can be effective also.


#15

i didnt mean he needs a good assist. More so that he needs one in general to be effective. Solo Bh seems like it can’t compare to doom solo. but once again, i really don’t know anything about bh.


#16

Yeah, that’s not really a relevant argument any more. Every good team is good because it’s got a good assist scheme and DHC scheme. Magneto likes having one of two or three setup assists or he’s just not really that effective. Mag/Storm and Storm/Sent have come to dominate the game because of their combined mobility and DHC power.

So basically any character’s value comes down to how much they contribute on point, as an assist, and as a DHC both for changing characters safely and doing damage on a hit. Let’s just bring it down to the basics: can you win with a team with one of these characters on it? Let’s be perfectly blunt here: on a technical execution level, my Sentinel is about as low-rent of garbage as you’re ever going to see on any player that pretends to know what they’re doing. Yet I can beat 95%, minimum, of the players who’ve ever participated in a tournament between San Francisco and Seattle while playing in “easy mode”, pretty much entirely because BH’s assist behind Sentinel is just that beat- you- in- my- sleep- without- looking- like- I’m- even- trying- hard good, as well as BH being pretty damn good on point if you know what you’re doing with him as well as I do. There are times I wonder how scary I’d be if I ever took the time and actually developed a Kuan-in-his-prime or Sanford-like Sentinel to go with all that stuff.

Conversely, there are absolutely zero teams that have been used in tournaments by any particularly good player that are designed to use Doom on point since 2001. As far as I can tell, he pretty much vitally needs Cyclops’ AAA to even be anything but a pincushion in today’s game. And even at that, as far as I’ve been able to tell he’s still only going to do particularly well if you’ve put him on a team where somebody ahead of him has taken the lead already and all Doom has to do is keep that lead. I don’t think anybody’s going to use something like Doom/Sentinel/Cyclops as a staple team to the degree of success that I’ve been having with BH/Sent/Commando for the last several years. If you know of anybody who’s done it, who could potentially hang with the likes of, say, a Crizzle or a Randy Lew in a tournament like I’ve done, I’d really be interested in knowing about it and/or seeing video. I’ve done it with BH, and I’ve seen other people do it. I’ve seen literally zero people do it with Doom since the development of semi-modern Magneto and Sentinel. That pretty much says it all for me.


#17

imo. i don’t consider being assist dependant a flaw. in reality, against the gods, all characters are assist dependant. period. it doesn’t matter if so so has tools and other options, in the end, assists are just as needed equally. Cable can’t handle sent/capcom, or mags/psy with out assists. Same goes with any character.


#18

i agree, thats why i said the (but hell, so is strider and he’s a pain in the ass) part… my post was more to elaborate on situations where you might have to play solo ie when your other two characters have died. but i don’t agree on everyone being assist dependent. all the gods (minus cable) can do VERY well, without using an assist. thats part of the reason why they’re gods in the first place.


#19

bh vs doom. doom shits on bh. dude cant even wave dash against his photons and thats not the only thing doom got against bh.

bh vs mag and sentinel is wayy better than doom vs mags and sentinel.

doom vs strider/doom is infinitely better than bh vs strider/doom


#20

1st. Unless Doom catches BH doing something in mid-air or mid-super, BH has the full screen dash to get under photons…

2nd. BH has FP Demons, FP Dark Thunder, and square jumping pokes against M/S (amongst other things). Doom has j.LP, sparingly used j.FP, Nazi Kick xx Electric Cage for Mag/Sent RP blitzkriegs, and a few other things I wish not to enclose right now…

Like I said in a MUCH EARLIER post…the majority ov the Doom players are not on par to how he is actually ‘supposed’ to be played (execution-wise…not just filling the screen with shit), thus is one ov the reasons why BH poses a better chance here (and I ain’t shitting on BH either…).

3rd. Both BH and Doom have specific ways to avoid/stall out the S/D lock…the only reason why BH succumbs to this more often is because ov his size…but this doesn’t mean that he doesn’t have ways out ov the trap alone (*cough…pushblock…fullscreen dash when there’s a gap that BH’s mid dash vulnerability isn’t exploited by orbs/rocks…). Doom, ov course, has the point blank Electric Cage to null Orbs/Rings/Rocks AND catch both S/D in the process (if they’re close enough together, though the super easily takes up half screen distance). Runaway Doom strats also apply here (sj. ad/up, Plasma Beam xN) unless Strider gets smart and uses upward Ragnarok + Orb rings to catch you.