BnB's, West Coast Shuffle and other amazing shit!

chun-li

#1

ok so, after playing WW and nashfans chuns, while also trying to crack the code on oldschool valles style of movement/footsies i think i finally “get it”

first the bnb’s and setups courtesy of Whawhat:

bnb’s tested versus ryu, setup is empty jump/walkin point blank/show focus >dash in > low attack.

1.cr.lk > crlpx2 > st.fp = 172
2.cr.lk > cr.lp x2 > st.lp > st.fp = 176
3.cr.lp x3 > st.fp = 182
4.cr.lp x3 > st.lp > st.fp = 186
5.cr.lk x2 xx ex legs = 180
6.cr.lk x3 xx ex legs = 189
7.cr.lk > cr.lp x2 > cr.mk xx exlegs = 234 (insane damage here!)

miscellaneous for comparison values:

  1. j.fp x2 > cr.lp x 3 > st.fp = 244
  2. j.fp x2 > cr.fp xx mk hasan shu = 297

another bnb worth mentioning cause of spacing and west coast shuffle (wcs):

1.cr.lk > cl.st.lk > cr.lp > st.fp = 172

should you decide to not continue this combo on block you can stop at either the cr.lp or the close standing light kick… either way you’ve achieved some great spacing for walk forward throw or dash forward throw… mixing up this with hasan shus and cr.lk’s

theory on the bnb’s:

i used to never use these till whawhat came by, he showed me that through empty jumping i could pretty much guarantee that the opponent would be standing and so there would be no need to confirm the high or crouch hit… he’s got some other setups besides empty jumping but i’ll leave those to him… if he wants to divulge some of his secrets, this thread is here.

also, you should whenever possible substitute cr.lp for st.lp… the reason is obvious:

cr.lp does 40 damage and st.lp only does 20… but st.lp has more range versus ryus hitbox so it will combo in places that crlp would have wiffed… thats why i put down this list of bnb’s that hit him…

an interesting bnb versus chun is:

cr.lk > cr.lp x 3 > st.fp = 190!

West coast shuffle (wcs)

ok so this is some powerful shit… fortunately its EXCLUSIVELY a high level tactic and much more of an art than a tactic… if you get owned for trying this, dont come crying to me… i dont wanna hear it… you have to know your opponent and have set them up/read them well before you can do this… also i call this the west coast shuffle because it was taught and originated by tomo to watson to valle (this is what i assume… i know valle gives watson credit for teaching him footsies… i’ve seen watson (wcs) before and i can only assume from reading old school threads that watson himself learned/stole this from the man himself… TOMO)

i could definitely be wrong on who originated this and how it was passed down, one thing that i do know is that the earliest vids i’ve seen of this being used was by valle/choi and watts way back in the b4 tourny… also this isnt a west coast exclusive thing… i’m pretty sure that i’ve seen east coast players use this from time to time… but no one abuses this shit like us… i’ve even seen mm use this a few times in his videos versus dr.chaos:

so it is basically in an oversimplified nutshell:

walk forward > walk back > crouching attack

are you guys yawning now???

let me explain: this IS NOT regular spacing / footsies games… there is a VERY specific range where this can be used to good effect and generally speaking those 2 ranges are: just inside your opponents crouching lk/lp range, and just inside of your opponents crouching mk range if there prefferred medium poke is a kick… if its a punch then just inside of the punches range is where the sweet spot is.

heres an extremely basic example:

chun v.ryu, ryu in corner, chun about to pull off a wcs:

from outside of her cr.lp range she walks in and does a MAX RANGE cr.lp that gets blocked or hit (prefferably hit) after she recovers from the cr.lp she walks forward about a half a step and then immediately walks backwards (now out of range of a cr.lp and does a crouching medium kick xx exlegs.

what makes this so hard besides you really having to be in your opponents head, is that there is a specific timing too how long you want to hold forward and then how long you hold backwards before you input the crouching attack.

if you hold forward too long you will get jabbed or thrown either on the way in or out, if you dont do it long enough you wont be able to sell the throw bait… if you hold backwards too long you will be out of your crouching attack range.

now like i said that was the most basic example that i could give, heres another one that is a little more advanced:

chun JUST outside of her st.mp range:

walk forward > duck when a bit outside of chuns cr.mk range > immediately walk forward again and throw when in range.

next time it gets more advanced:

walk forward into cr.mk range > duck then immediately walk forward again into ryus cr.lp range > walk backwards > cr.mk xx ex legs.

and for a complete mindfuck and why the (wcs) is so goddamned awesome:

same positioning just outside of chuns st.mp:

walk forward > duck > walk forward into weak attack range > walk backwards > duck > walk in throw.

once you understand the simple building blocks like ducking being a “fake” crouching attack and walking into you opponents crouching jab range on purpose with no intention to throw but only to get them to wiff something or standup: you can come up with your own patterns… just know that is only the tip of the iceberg… you can duck to fake a low attack and then immediately jump in while they are thinking about defending the ground.

if you duck and then immediately go to neutral, this is a fake jump… it only works when you use the ducking to jump strategy that i outlined earlier though… you can use it to freeze the opponent for a split second and let you get into say cr.mk range uncontested.

and thats all i’m going to say about that.
i’ll be putting up some explanatory vids a bit later though… need to find them first.

awesomeness ensues from 7:55 to 8:05

wcs is at 8:00

[media=youtube]ulN_yGmEYbE&feature=PlayList&p=06F3B8EF74496DDB&index=4[/media]

watson does it at 1;43 and 1;44 here:

other spots its attepmted by both players but these 2 are way too good for it to work well on each other:

[media=youtube]otvb-AlynJQ[/media]

other amazing shit:

this game is soaked through and through with option selects… i have not figured out the main facets (the basics if you will) for some of them but heres the one for nemos cr.lk (lk~mk~hk) option select versus waking backdashers:

cr.lk > cr.lp or cr.lk + cr.hk.

first, theres no reason to roll the inputs other than buffering the ex legs.
second, this can be done by every character not just chun… the only thing needed is to use a chainable weak attack followed by another one + whatever higher priority button/MOVE that you want to come out… and yes this is also option selectable to special moves like hasan shu instaed of just the cr.lk.

i’ll write more in a bit… tired… gonna go find those videos.

-dime


#2

lol that’s called a throw bait, Dime.


#3

All I have to say is that Azrael actually posted this exact thing about 3 weeks ago when talking about his matches with Nuki. Read between the lines.

Furthermore, welcome to street fighter.


#4

[media=youtube]QM0QuN4PzKk[/media] :pleased:


#5

you talking about, how he was talking about nuki cr.hk’ing him at the exact right time???

hmmm… yeah but thats just the tip of it… and pretty much NO ONE does this that isnthigh level… so maybe folks should have said something? haha calling it throw bait is like calling megan fox a cute chick… lol… this is what i’ve been looking for and i’ve asked on the oldschool threads and everything… and all i ever got was people scratching there heads…

but yeah… everyone knows about this right :rolleyes:

throw bait the way people try to do it against me is: cr.lk x2 walk up cr.lk x 2 walk up cr.lp x1… etc. etc. till they get a throw or a combo…

that aint what i’m talking about… but then again i didnt put up the best examples either.

-dime


#6

yea no offense but that happens on the daily in a third strike match


#7

^^^ none taken, its not so good in 4 anyways but still has its uses… and yeah i didnt play 3s.

-dime


#8

this is my favorite

i still need to work on the cl.rh counterhit to break throw tech attempts, apparently the timing is tighter than i thought

and for people saying “what else is new” remember not everybody on these forums are advanced Chun players, im sure a decent amount of people dont know this stuff or dont implement it


#9

thanks for the read, pretty thorough explanation of high level footsies.


#10

Same principle as Gooteck’s invention that he showed at Sinsation earlier this year with Jump in Roundhouse (blocked), low jab, walk back, low strong dash punch/super with Balrog if they attempt to throw tech (they were thinking tick throw) and whiffed it.

Exactly the same as the Valle/Combofiend vid posted.

Of course, him being in the 2009 sf4 mindset, he thinks he invented that too and that he should be credited with it.


#11

I have no idea why you assume that


#12

since throws were great in that game (as in this)
people often walk forward then walk back see someone wiff throw and low foward super or w/e
throw bait

lotta 3s players do this in this game gootecks especially


#13

I’m talking about Gootecks. I remember using that tactic on him and him getting mad as if he should be credited with it and that I cant use it.


#14

Good read. Thanks Dime.

A nice place for people having trouble with footsies to start.


#15

I’ve seen this before but I didn’t think it had a name. Informative post Dime, as always. I try to incorporate this into my play style but I don’t have it down just yet.


#16

1.arent you contradicting yourself here? first you call it gootecks invention and then you say it isnt…

2.he was doing it way before sinsation. (but that doesnt matter at all)

  1. its not the same as what i posted, but yeah it definitely is the same strat/thinking behind what i’m talking about… it however is NOT just throw baiting… thats just the beginning… the foundation of the other mindgames/ spacings. the iuses of this however can go deeper than that… you can also use it to make the opponent wiff a much longer poke like shoto cr.mk… and thusly get a free jumpin or wiff punish… thats why i call it a shuffle… theres ALOT of things that can be done.

like sabin calling goukis options for mixup after a knockdown “the vortex” its just a way of syaing something alot more deeper and complicated by one smaller name so its less convoluted in print and when spoken about…

  1. what gootecks was doing was a very specific setup and afaik he’s the only person that uses it to the devastaing effect with balrog that he does, also since he cant walk forward without losing charge, he doesnt do it the way i was talking about… also he rarely does anything but “that” version, its been along time since we played but i didnt see him getting very deep with it.

  2. how come your not using this? we havent played much but you weren’t using this iirc, cause i think i’d remember it… i identified it while playing against ww almost instantly… he abuses this and other mindgames founded on this to the MAX… and its extremely tight shit.

i just think its weird for people to come on and say that they knew about it that never or rarely use it. if your talking about walking jabs to counterhit setups, yeah, thats not what i’m talking about.

i’m just trying to get some good talk going about a subject that NO ONE talks about cause i (and many other players) could use some info on, and people are coming out of the woodworks as if this is the most known /openly talked about and used thing ever… but since i’ve played against almost ALL of the high level people that you have, i think i can safely say that MOST of them arent using it.

the reason why i said it wasnt so good in this game is because i havent seen many people using it that often as well as this game has a slow walking speed so its alot harder for some characters to be ambiguous about there spacing…

imagine sagat or sim trying to pull this off… laughable.

i’m not him and i’m NOT trying to get credit for something that i most definitely didnt invent. and i most definitely didnt invent this…

but i was smart enough to post it up when there are no posts about it… thats the only credit that i would like…

i’m a teacher and a nice guy in general… you know that… we’ve met and talked and had fun.

honestly though since gootecks is the only person that uses it like he does/ with the frequency that he does i do think he deserves credit for showing people that it is a viable tactic in 4.

dont you?

nemo got credit for the nemo string which is nothing but a counterhit setup… he didnt invent counterhit setups.
and he also got credit for the stunbuilder combo… he didnt invent stun combos either.
he got credit for his option selects… yeah, he didnt invent option selects either.

so why cant ryan get credit for what he ALMOST exclusively brought to the public light?

i wouldnt get mad if someone used my shit against me… it happens all the time.
i get a little peeved when people steal tactics without thanking/ acknowledging there creator though.

ww used a stomp setup on conk and was like “thats for you dime”

i’d be lying if i said i didnt feel proud there.

i just want people to get better, so i have better competition… its been working, so i’m happy.

in the end alot of people that dont post and dont know these things DO read the boards… folks are going to have to be on the lookout for raw talent coming out of the woodworks. i think thats a good thing for the community.

and i’m all about the community.

99% the fellowship actually

thanks for reding everything if you did.

-dime


#17

good shit dime, ive known about this for awhile but never thought about using it SF4 as honda doesn’t really benefit from it, which was my main when SF4 first released.

goin to incorporate it into my chun game, see how it works out.


#18

you need to come over and teach me more of this shit!!!
nashfan abuses this type of movement as well, and i’m glad to say that even though he 14-2 me, i was playing better against him than i ever had… his tactics were no longer “above my head” he was just straight up outplaying me, but atleast it wasnt by things that i had no defense against cause i didnt know what i was going up against.

the show focus > forward dash cr.lk or throw (or other things) is awesome! nashfan uses that as well…

do you guys play each other?

Thanks!

your welcome guys, i do this shit for you.
practice makes better so get out thereand see which situations you can use this in… i’ll be doing the same.

just remember that this probably is very stupid to try versus a lower level player.

-dime


#19

Very nice posts, Dime. I just want to let you know I appreciate your presence here very much. I can tell you sincerely want to make sf4 a better world for Chun, and… <3.

This is a pretty neat string because cl. lk is visually deceiving. I think that’s what might make it effective. Since cl. lk doesn’t rapid fire, it’s also an automatic frame trap for counter-hit jab, which can link into a sweep. I’ve been using cl. lp for this, but maybe leaving an extra frame open isn’t a bad thing if you want a counter-hit, plus this looks cooler.

Cl. lk has an interesting property against knocked down opponents in that it kicks the corpse into better spacing for safe grab mixups. A mixup I’ve been having luck with is against Gief… it goes:

Sweep, Dash x2, Cl. Lk, Lk HSU. It’s surprisingly effective. Beats a BUNCH of his wake-up options. On chars with no SPD/Lariat, you have more throw bait options.


#20

ive played nashfan a few times before but not regularly, hes good