Boxer Wong, good or bad

balrog

#1

I watched the EVO 2009 finals live. Wong is obviously a good player. From my experience playing G1 Boxers online, I see many tactics Wong didn’t attempt. So I post here to see what the SRK Boxer players think: Did Wong’s gameplay suffer from abandoning some Boxer tactics?

He did some nice things. Wong’s dash punch to super was sweet, and done a few times. He had good spacing and avoided fireballs well with jumps and FAs. Lots of footsies.

Here is what I think was lacking:
[list]
[] He missed the ultra after a headbutt a few times. The announcers mumbled something like “he kept the ultra on purpose”. BS!
[
] He didn’t do a single turn around punch. I’m not a Boxer player, but this is not a bad move right? It can be punished from far, but mid screen it could have pressured Ryu to be more careful with fireballs. As it was Ryu fireballed all day, even close up.
[] He rarely used headbutt. He used it in combos, but I think he could have stuffed some jump ins and probably even hit Ryu through some close fireballs.
[
] He didn’t EX dash punch through the fireball barrage. This is a useful tool and I believe can go into high damaging combos and ultra. Only thing I can think of is maybe he was saving for his super. Is that a good idea?
[/list]


#2

My .02 worth…

Wong played his Boxer a bit different from typical Am boxer. Far less special and depended more on normals and footsies. Why? It is a very Wong-esque mentality to SF4. Very conservative offensively (look at his S3 Chun and Rufus). He likes to use a lot of relatively safe attacks. Boxer’s specials are less safe especially with a c.mk + hado spamming Ryu (which can stop some of the EX punches).

Yes there was (where?) at least one instant that Justin seemed to save his Ultra. At least I thought it made perfect sense. He was too far back health wise and he was not going to get 2nd level 1 Ultra (if I remember correctly). He was in that in between stage of level 1 and 2 Ultra. And he was definitely not going to risk building a meter with Daigo in a close match. FA only when necessary.

Also, Daigo was getting confident and agressive with his FADC - one bad move and he could eat a 350+ combo with Daigo not even spending an EX bar.

I think this what really made the fight close - not that Daigo had less Boxer experienced like many initially thought (post interview confirmed this) but Justin used Boxer in a different manner- a lot of normals that did not depend on Boxer’s jabs and specials.

Add the fact that Justin great use of quick Super combos - really fast charging that took many by surprise - and you get some close fights with Daigo.

Yes he did missed at least couple of Ultra combos there but his footsies and normals where so good that he made up for it. If he played Boxer as much as his Rufus in tournies I think he would definitely be the best Am Boxer because his execution would be much higher. Right now, I only have that Daigo match to compare so it is too early for me to say.


#3

Yes he saved his ultra on purpose, if you hit an ultra after a regular Bnb combo it gets scaled to just about nothing

TAP against Diago who would LP Shoryuken into HP Super for massive damage, don’t think so. It’s a really dangerous move against good people

If you miss headbutt you get a huge punish, but I do agree that Justin Wong could of gotten some good hits in if he tried to use his Keno Eye

EX through fireballs is also a bad idea unless you’re at the perfect distance, Ryu can c. MK xx Shoryuken into Ultra if he feels like it for a good punish

He was doing just fine


#4

^ this man


#5

ILLiterate hit the nail on the head, especially on TAP and preserving ultra. There isn’t much more to it, Wong just knew what Daigo would expect in the beginning.


#6

Given it was Daigo, I think Justin played his Boxer correctly. Wong wasn’t playing no online slouch, he was playing one of the best for all the marbles. Its hard to get one pass Daigo. If you watch his Ryu, its rare to bait anything out of him and he doesn’t fall for tricks or mix ups. Wong was straight up working the ground game and play solid footies which in some regard could be the best tactic to taking down the beast. You can see that Wong saved Boxers overhead and armor breaking tricks towards the end and only got one armor break to land. After that, he was back to square one with the footies.

As far as headbutts… I do see a few instances where he could of landed a few, but if he guessed wrong, its punishment time. Against the beast for the championship, it was best to play it safe. Now, if wong would of stayed his ass in that chair and stayed focused on winning, then he likely would have. But all that showboating just made Daigo mad and gave him an extra few minutes to figure out his Boxer.


#7

I thought Justin Wongs Boxer was very smart. I play as Sagat and Balrog is sometimes my easiest match up but only when they are predictable… A well placed jump will beat out a EX dash over head or EX dash low. I also use the focus attack to punish Headbutts ( EX and normal ) and low dash’s . Justin did none of these in a non safe situation. He really utilized the poking game and refused to expose Rog’s weakness. If you watch the vid’s, Daigo was waiting for the same thing by almost spamming the FA and randomly jumping straight up in anticipation for Rogs dash punch. I believe Daigo knew the match up very well but Justin used him it a very non traditional way .

Justin took Daigo’s knowledge Of Rog and His knowledge of Daigo then flipped the script. I thought it was very smart.

Edit… removed turnaround punch and over head dash… i changed the wording of my post and fucked it up… sorry


#8

Justin Wong played an excellent boxer last night, just because he didn’t do anything fancy doesn’t mean he wasn’t good. ILLiterates right; alot of moves and tactics that seem like a good idea would have been easily countered by Daigo, he had to take it back to basics and beat him with normals and safer moves. Daigo is gonna capitalize on every mistake you make, same with almost all high level players, you have to be more cautious at that level of play and try not to leave yourself open too much.


#9

He surprised me. He put me on the edge of my seat.


#10

Good.
He utilized his awesome normals.
Most idiot Rogs just go special crazy which, inevitably, leads to a loss of bike money .


#11

i completely agree to illiterate’s post… also on point 3, i think justin was afraid of daigo’s specialty safe jumpins


#12

I hate this new gen of youtube fighters. YOU are judging Justin Wongs play in the grand finals with over 20 thousand people watching and the pressure of an entire nation against Daigo? lmao are you serious? Who are you? I wish I could multi-neg.


#13

Interesting. I can see how changing things up is necessary at high level play. But I don’t think any tools should be absolutely abandoned, maybe for a round or two, but not every round. Sure, moves can be punished if done wrong, but there were plenty of opportunities for proper usage. I’m not saying Wong should have done moves on a guess to hope they hit, but that using the moves he abandoned was sometimes the right or better thing to do.

I still think turn around punch could have been useful. AFAIK, at mid range, through a fireball, Ryu gets hit or at best has to block, and it has safe recovery. This plus a headbutt or two could have taken a lot of pressure off Wong, without reverting to a typical online Boxer.

Come on, you can’t just LP SRK into super a TAP. If the TAP goes through fireballs, which there was plenty of chance to do, AFAIK you can’t SRK. This is like saying Daigo should not have used SRK, because Balrog would just do his BnB and Daigo would eat a ton of damage. Same with EX dash, Daigo through fireballs from all kinds of distances, there were plenty of chances to EX dash or TAP, but I think Wong has removed those moves from his arsenal, which allowed Daigo more control.

Um, both overhead and turn around punch breaks armor.

BlueFlamingo, I’m discussing SF on a SF forum. Considering he came reasonably close to winning, but lost, Wong does have room to improve his game. Can you take his penis from your mouth for just a second and think?


#14

TAP is not a safe move. You can get thrown out of that move or c.mk xx shoryu out of it also (depends on spacing). EX Rushes not a good move to use also against people with good reaction and experience vs Balrog because Ryu has so many options against it. He can throw it, c.mk xx shoryu or any variation of c.mk xx whatever. Headbutts are not safe! A lot of new boxers don’t understand how easy it is to bait a Boxer headbutt and safe jump against it! A random headbutt is definitely not safe, especially because you can’t fadc out of it like other moves. and to about not ultraing after a BnB headbutt combo, I’m 100% sure wong didn’t want to waste an ultra for damage equivalent to 2 jabs. That said Wong has played the best zoning/footsie boxer i have seen in the US. Eduardo was sick too though! :slight_smile: thats all!

If you weren’t impressed with Wong’s Boxer then you don’t understand the game of SF4.


#15

I’d love to see you time the TAP properly at that range to go through a fireball and not get SRK’d instead. Oh wait, you don’t even use Boxer.

@BlueFlaming: The worst part is, it’s not going to stop. The internet is here to stay, and so are the idiots who think they’re good by criticizing top players.


#16

Here we go. Oh no, someone has tried to analyze a top player! Flame on!


#17

Are you sure?


#18

oh yea i just wanted to add that online tactics don’t work offline. maybe that might help you understand why wong wasn’t using the online boxer tactics against daigo!

edit: to the person above, i totally missed that. but yea, goodluck to that dude trying to focus against overheads and TAP lol


#19

Justin Wong did not play fine, he whipped out one of the best boxers I have ever seen grace the screen. You think the man who was inches away from taking 3 championships home doesn’t know how to ultra after a headbutt? The ultra seemed to be saved for a rainy day when he could land the full thing instead of minimal juggle damage. How on earth would daigo fall for a tap or ex rush through a fireball at half screen? The beast has fierce shoryu’d through much tighter spots. Balrogs headbutt is a staple in combos, but he didn’t use it much standalone. This is because he didn’t have a charge much of the time, he was too busy messing with spacing and excellent normal use. Did you see HOW MANY TIMES boxer’s crouch fierce knocked daigo out? On the last point, hit confirming into super is a hell of a better idea then hoping that one of the contenders for best 2d fighter player on earth is going to be tricked by a rush through a fireball. In fact, I think Wong DID try and ex through a FB, and got knocked down!

Wong didn’t attempt many of those “superior” tactics you see on xbox live because Daigo knows a good boxer and was waiting for exactly what you thought he should have done. Any other Balrog player would have done much worse in my opinion.


#20

Boxer has excellent footsies. He abused it. Everything else has been covered.

TAP is not safe unless he spaces it perfectly. Also, the footsie game usually requires Boxer to be mobile and not having a charge at hand meaning no headbutt outside of combos.

Saving ultra has been beaten to death here in the forums because of damage scaling on BnB combos. Also, saving ultra allows Boxer to be more of a threat by having the psychological game of a possible ultra through fireball or a round-ending combo during the latter portion of the round.

We can keep talking here about a lot of things, but if you didn’t think that was a solid Boxer, you just need more experience before seeing it. I think we’re pretty much done.