Brawl Top 8 2k8 - Thoughts of the spectators, both smash fans and not!

I don’t like Smash, I don’t think it’s a game one should play seriously, but I was pleasantly surprised with how exciting it was with what I had watched. I had left to go eat with friends for most of the finals and returned to watch ?CPU? and Ken battle it out during grand finals. I was surprised to see how exciting it was.

Hiryu, good shit, you must have made a good profit… though next year (if it is going to be at 09) my strategy got you beat: Bet on the player with the hot enough mom that shows up at the tournament.

Its going to be free money:woot:

GET EM Sabre!

:amazed::amazed::amazed::amazed::amazed::amazed::amazed::amazed::amazed::amazed::amazed:

CPU full screen optic blast to steal the smash ball was the sickest shit ever. Niggas dodging Marth’s FS and the variety of characters being used only added to the overall experience. Fuck the online haters–Smash with items was mad fun to watch!

Keits-I was one of the many who went up to shake your hand. Honestly, I can’t thank you enough. Your work made already hype matches even better. You’re up there with Tragic and Rock in terms of commentary. :tup:

I had a lot of fun watching the Smash finals. I play the game casually but decided to get hype for the Snake players just because I’m a huge Metal Gear fan. I genuinely ended up having a great time anyway throughout the matches.

The commentary was awesome, even when Keits was being somewhat preachy in his defense of items being on. I don’t really care either way, but it was funny hearing:

“Marth’s smash unavoidable hunh? Look at that right there!” (Opponent dodges through it.)

“Landmaster is a free 3 stocks? Riiiiiiiight.” (Tank falls into the water.)

As others have said the commentary was spot on as far as informing people on what was going on, why people weren’t picking up giant hammers, and cracking jokes: “Peach just ate a peach, then DeeDeeDee ate Peach.” Good stuff!

While randomness was present, the technical skill being showcased was great. It was interesting to see how players dealt with items and terrain/level design, two things you won’t really find in other fighting games. It’s also those two things that make Smash standout among the other games and fun to watch. :tup:

I am not defending them I am just trying to look out for EVO interest. I just don’t think anyone should work so hard and get nothing in return not even a “thank you.” As for the Smash community yea it does seem like they dislike Brawl but there still enough people that play it to make it more popular then our 3S or Mahvel.

Well yeah, Evo should keep its interests in mind; I agree with that completely. They should either drop the no items rule (would probably make the game more boring to watch), or drop Brawl since the community is full of a bunch of brats.

This is nothing but truth. If it was, ken and cpu wouldnt have been in the grand finals. Real players said fuck the hammers as they would get countered, Peepo were baiting each other to make the first hit on the smash ball, peepo were dodging marths fs, dodging peaches sleep fs, shit was tooooo intresting and i too is not a smash player/fan. I dont think it was more intresting watching john choi dominate stf or watching chunk put jwong in the losers bracket in marvel or crizzle 2-0 almost everyone in his final 8 brackets but its toooo good to watch and w/o items and that “random” factor smash would suck…seriously.

Its no disrespect to smash players at all cuz the peepo i see place all the time in smash made top 8 like they were suppose too. All those peepo who are crying, make a statement in the game first and may b your opinion will mean something.

Fave part:

CPU dodges Kens final smash in the grand finals

“ROLL CANCEL THAT SHIT” that was me yellin that shit out lol.

And some one randomly yelling at CPU’s R.O.B:

“KILL THAT SENTINAL DAMNIT”

edit: the commentary was fucking great and funny, a lot of shit i didnt know until he actually said it, dodging peaches fs in the air or why u dont grab hammers or stage picking and such

First off, Keits commentary was great. I wanted to help but at that point my voice was gone. Nasir also did a great job of assisting where I could not. If smash returns, Id like to rectify that and make the Skeits duo a reality.

I am severely disappointed by the childish attitudes of certain advocates items off advocates. Originally, I was very anti items. I have always recognized items on/off as a preference, but being a novice melee player I was used to itemless play. However, after the release of Brawl, I’d made it clear that if items were on at Evo sign me up cuz yo super sonic whats really good.

On a tangent, this whole experience reminds me of the time when smash melee first came out. I’d gotten owned by my scrubby friends in smash 64 a few times and realized it had some legitimacy, but I can’t remember what exactly made me want to buy melee. I distinctly remember tragic telling me very cool things about the game, when he was toying around with it, and explaining to me that the game actually had a ripe tournament scene. The problem was, the tournament scene was all fubar’d because they were still deciding on items on/off/which items, etc. Basically I understood the situation to be a mess, and it seem sort of silly to practice for a format that would be in flux for a while.

Much later, I learned melee from melee players. They were no items, they had their reasons. I went along with it because that’s what everyone else did, but the key is, never did I decide that items were broken or stupid. The decision was sort of made for me, but it was okay because an itemless game made it seem more easier for me to relate to Street Fighter anyway.

That being said, here are my thoughts on the actual evo tournament.

Total success. Not only with the top 8, but from the very first match the depth of items-on play was apparent. I saw so many mallet tops fall off you’d think it was supposed to do. I also saw people learn and adapt to the items as tourney progressed, and was pleased at the development.

That stuff’s cool, but it didnt have to happen in tournament. It was pretty clear that not too many people ACTUALLY practiced with items for this tourney, even tho Ken himself said he likes items. Not to say that items werent utilized well, but inexperience was apparent. For instance, did anyone know you dont get slept by Peach’s FS if you are in the air until Keits said so? I sure as hell didn’t know until he’d told me the previous day, and then I saw every single person go beddy-bye until he mentioned it in his commentary. tsk.

Similarly, I thought SK92’s falco was absolutely amazing, but his landmaster usage was clearly lacking. It was incredibly entertaining to watch his development with the landmaster, he was another player who seemed learn items as the tourney went along. It was a great tourney and it could’ve been even better if people had taken items a bit more seriously. I think thats a possibility now. I really hope people will test shit out instead of being so quick to dismiss them. This isn’t the place to discuss the particulars of items-on play, but obvious that the vast majority of the items arent broken (Although many items weren’t turned on at evo… lets hope more are in the future. Pokeballs please.)

In spite of all that, the tournament was DOPE. The finals were GREAT. The top players were SKILLED and PLAYED WELL. And to my knowledge, everyone had FUN. Im sure everyone that went to their tourneys in Massachusetts, Socal, and wherever, can say the same thing. So why does it have to be such a problem??

If, when I had started playing melee, instead of “they are still arguing about rulesets”, it would have been “well theres some tourneys with items, and some without”, I would’ve started playing the game years earlier. So instead of all this bickering, itd be nice if there could just be some diversity in tournaments and players are free to choose.

It is so ironic, that in the 1up.com video Gimpyfish made such a point about how you have fun playing your game, and how nobody can tell you wrong. I cant understand why you kids cant do the same.

My last word on the brokenness/randomness/luckiness of items: Victories must be earned, remember, You cannot crack a smash ball with my foot in yo ass.

I thought that the commentary was amazing, I didn’t know shit about smash, but I felt like I did with the commentary. Items are fun as well. I only watched finals but ROB is a beast. His final smash is like geneijin!

This might be the dumbest post ever. To me, it translated to this. “I don’t play smash, but fuck them smash fags. Items are kewl cause funny shit happens, which makes it better amirite? Plus, they suck at cvs2 so they don’t even know how to play games in the first place. I wish blanka was in smash brothers.”

The only thing proven by this smash tournament is that anyone hosting a tournament for a game they’re not familiar with should ask that game’s community before making up their own rule set. Not to say shit wasn’t crazy, but the plain and simple fact is, the top smash players weren’t there because to them, a tournament with items is a joke, and if it’s Evo’s goal to incorporate a different fighting game into their roster, they really should get it straight.

Now, all that being said, I don’t even like smash brothers, but these posts saying “yo items are legit this shit proves it” are retarded, because it only proves it to people who didn’t play smash in the first place.

This is a pretty poor attempt at trolling, but nice try anyways. I found it humorous how you put words into my mouth when I neither said nor implied that “items are kewl cause funny shit happens”. Get that childish “translation” shit out of here. And for the record, I don’t even like CvS2 that much. :rolleyes:

I’m not even sure if you even saw the thread regarding the rules of Smash and what they should be at Evo. IIRC, Wizard did actively ask the community what their thoughts on items/smash balls were (although he did ultimately decide on items, despite complaints). Regardless, it’s not like the top eight players randomed their way to top eight like they were Mike Wakefield because of items; the top eight players got there because they were good. Whether the other top players showed up or not isn’t really an issue, since it was highly likely they would have made top eight anyways even if items were on (much like Ken did).

Overall I think the tournament turned out to be better than expected (i.e. a complete disaster) but not a huge success it would have likely been with items off. The tournament was still good and exciting, despite not every top player or whatever not showing up.

Evo’s goal is to promote hardcore competitive play in fighting games. Banning entire sets of features just because you don’t like them goes against the competitive spirit that is the very core of Evo. If something is broken, prove it’s broken by dominating everyone with it, and then we’ll talk.

The second you start banning features, you put limits on the competitors. If a player figures out a dominating strategy, who’s to say that it won’t get banned too? You see this happening already with people calling for a ban on chain throws in Brawl. To me, competition is no holds barred – if you’ve got a dominating strat, pump it for all it’s worth and make people find a way to beat it. We’ve seen time after time that moves and strategies that seem unbeatable at first have natural counters, and the game becomes richer as a result.

The smash finals this year proved this point yet again. The players who won were the ones who could skillfully manipulate ALL aspects of the game. I hope the smash community will come around and see our point of view. Unfortunately I’m sure many won’t, and will continue to play their beloved crippled version of the game.

Jester - Where you even there? Better say yes or your post is getting deleted.

About players not showing up - When you choose to boycott something, instead of showing up and proving your point, you are FAIL. Total FAIL. When you change your argument from “this tournament will fail” to “you got less people than last year even though it went well”, you are an even bigger disgrace to yourself and your community.

Lets keep this on topic. This is purely for the comments of those players who were THERE, and WATCHED. You are free not to like it, but this isnt the place to criticize Evo, its staff, or anyone involved in the decision to break from the ‘norm’. If you are really lacking information on why it happened the way it did, I can point you to a 120 page thread about it.

Thank you to the rest of you for the great feedback. Keep it coming!

EDIT - Ink - a-men my friend. You said that beautifully. Lets not remove the queen from the chess board, people! Oh, and backgammon has dice! Even in tournament play! KICK BACK!

Just wondering how many ppl entered and whats place did every1 get?

and how much $ did 1st get?

I wholeheartedly agree with everything in this post.

Brawl top 8 was one of the most exciting things for me at Evo this year, and I don’t even own a Wii much less play Smash.

The thing with Smash is that as straight one-on-one competition it doesn’t do anything that, say, SF or GG can’t do better, but the items and stages make it something radically different from any other fighting game out there. Traditionally, the characters’ skills and matchups have been the meat of competitive fighting games, and the Smashboards community still clings to that notion. But in this particular case, the terrain and items can also be part of the meat of the game, and Evo demonstrated that when enabled they enrich the experience.

Also, to Hellmonkey and anyone else talking about “randomness”, I will give you an example:

Keits qualified out of his pool to make top 16. Why? Because against almost all of his opponents, he got the smashball ALMOST EVERY TIME. However, he qualified from losers because CPU was in his pool, and CPU raped him. Why? Because CPU got the smashball from him every time.

You could even see this in a few top 8 matches, where one guy clearly dominated the smashball.

Rather than being “random”, the smashball is the core mindgame of items-on Brawl. And honestly, to me anyway, it appears to be a very rich mindgame, like Smash’s equivalent to fireball traps & footsies, and more interesting than whatever the game has with items off.

I hope items-on Brawl remains in Evo next year and more Smashers learn the intricacies of this new game.

-Josh

The game is good fun, but almost all of the arguments for inclusion of items and the game itself in Evo seems to make the assumption that there is enough depth in zoning/mindgame/whatever you would call it in brawl that frankly doesn’t seem to exist. The execution in the game is laughable for the most part, and the entire fighting system seems horribly dumbed down compared to Melee. Despite hating to play melee, watching competitive play showed clearly the skill that was needed to play it. Good execution (i.e. wavedashing) including difficult combos along with advanced ledge guarding game seen in Melee that really defined Smash as a competitive game seem to have all been intentionally dumbed down or removed in Brawl.

If the game itself doesn’t have enough depth in these fundamental aspects of the game (particularly spacing), adding in random items really is only helping to create more random and less competitive results. This is without even mentioning how ridiculous some of the final smashes are (ROB’s run after them and hope it fires at the right time?), and that if you have a character without a great smash you’re going to be getting hurt even more by the random spawns.

This is of course just my personal opinion, I could not take the game seriously enough when picking it up to pick apart the whole fighting system, but everything I have heard from Smash players and seen from Evo has only reinforced my opinion. The game seems much more like a party game than a fighting game to me.

Perhaps players can find more creative ways to use the basic fighting system and/or item system to add more depth to the game, but when they intentionally removed those very things in this version and added something as silly as RANDOM TRIPPING, I don’t have much hope.

At this point in time, if I could inject Smash Balls and items into Third Strike that spawned randomly on the stage, I would do it in a heartbeat.

I love Smash and was totally for dropping items for next year to have more of thecommunity involved. But after watching the Finals this year, I am 100% in favor of items. NOTHING happened in the Final 8 that would have happened if items were off. Most of the times, when someone made a comeback from 3 down to 1 stocks with the use of Smash Balls, well, they only got to that position because of Smash Balls. In other words, they really do balance out in the end. And it prevented camping and added a much more organic element to the game.

Smash is already the most organic game at Evo. With DIs preventing canned Combos, damage percentage causing different reels and combos being possible, and so many characters with random elements (DeDeDe throwing out the spiked balls instead, peach pulling out bombs instead of veggies occassionally, etc.), it’s a SHAME to NOT embrace this organic nature. Smash isn’t a science. It shouldn’t be a science. Games like Third Strike and Super Turbo are a science. But it’s not Smash. And that’s what makes Smash so strong. So rather than hamper its strength, why not emphasize it? As been proved already, items did NOT affect the outcome. The only people who were robbed by items didn’t know how to play with them.

And Keits, you rock. No, seriously, YOU ROCK. Amazing shit you did there this year. I think I shook you hand like 5 times or something. I wish I did it more. Good job.

  • James

Thank you James :slight_smile:

Anything to help save a new game from its own ‘community’!

Keep it coming people, and remember that if you post in this thread and we find out that you were not at evo, your post will be deleted. This is for feedback of those who saw top 8 only…