Bread and Butters

zangief

#1

We all watch Snake Eyez on youtube, and I suppose the secret to winning at high levels is walking forward, blocking normals to keep you out, persist in walking forward, and confirm EX-Greenhands from crouching jabs and shorts to do the meat of your damage.

If you’ve been playing Zangief as long as I have, and you play him in majors–You’ll realize that it’s becoming too big a risk in SPDs in some situations. SPDs are not how you play footsies with Zangief, no matter what Aquasilk says, and no matter how filthy you look grabbing limbs. They have their place, but I’m tired of what it costs me to try it if the read is wrong, and I have great reads.

In watching our good forum friend Snake Eyez play in the latest majors and winning in LA, and upsetting some bad match ups for us Zangief players (Momochi, Dieminion), I’ve concluded that I’m just best focusing on buffering EX-Greenhands, and getting some preliminary footsie damage in the mean time, and let the opponent squirm with your health lead making sure you lariat jump-ins, or tech’ing throws, and blocking/back dashing mix ups and punishing properly.

My question is this:

I know the safest Banishing Flat (Not EX’d) is the jab. It’s still, on block -7, and on hit -5. Can anyone tell me why a Reversal Shoryuken from Akuma or Ryu or Oni or Ken is not able to punish a MAX RANGE Jab Banishing Flat ending my bread and butter? When you fit in 4 light attacks before a Banishing Flat, and Zangief hits the opponent at maximum range, it doesn’t seem throw/3 frame punishable at all. In my situations, on a successful jump in, or walking up and tagging them with crouching shorts, I can get 3-4 light hits in and cancel the last short into a jab Banishing Flat. I know on paper this is punishable, but I’ve tested it and I cannot get a reversal in this scenerio. It’s fully punishable if it wasn’t canceled into Jab Banishing Flat if anything less than ABSOLUTE maximum range, but it seems harder at the perfect range. Can anyone explain why? I’m not just talking about the range of the reversal either. It’s just getting blocked, not whiffing.


#2

<blockquote class=“Quote” rel=“Gieft”>If you’ve been playing Zangief as long as I have, and you play him in majors–You’ll realize that it’s becoming too big a risk in SPDs in some situations. SPDs are not how you play footsies with Zangief, no matter what Aquasilk says, and no matter how filthy you look grabbing limbs. They have their place, but I’m tired of what it costs me to try it if the read is wrong, and I have great reads.</blockquote>

I fully agree with your statements. I would advise against grabbing limbs, due to the high percentage of being psyched out. Every time you point blank SPD, you risk more than your opponent does. And when you guess an atomic suplex, it becomes worst, because had you went SPD, you would be safe if they jump back! In the case of being point blank, normal throw is the safe way to go. Kara~throw. You reduce vulnerability from back dash and neutral jump. Plus, I think you can ultra 2 jumps. Plus, you get arguably better than post Atomic Suplex positioning. But they can tech. Compared with SPD, normal throw is low risk, low reward - which leads to consistency.

Another factor as to whether or not you can go for a far range SPD, or even use it in footsies (which I don’t recommend, similarly like using shoryuken’s in footsies, although not as bad) is if your opponent has a “good forward moving answer” after they back dash and you whiff. Some characters might not.

Will answer your question later, but will need to run tests in the lab.

From my understanding, the only way, you can’t be punished on a hit of the LPGH, is if you hit their retracting limb, and not their main body. But if you combo into the LPGH that won’t be possible. Example: Sagat’s far st.hk, and you LPGH it. I don’t think he can punish, as his pokes need for frames to cover the increased ground.


#3

Have someone try to punish a MAXIMUM ranged LPGH after 4 light punches or shorts on hit. Short>short>short>short>light punch green hand - Making a 5 hit combo, try a reversal Ryu SRK, or a Balrog cr.LP. It seems safe…and I dont know why, but it’s the range that seems to matter.


#4

I believe its to do with Zangief’s hurtbox. He hits with the glove first, then moves his entire body forward right after.

Edit: Notice how the distance of the LPGH active hitting frames is shorter, than the total move distance. That’s why its never safe on hit, if its ever comboed into.

To test it out, I went into the lab, recorded Ryu vs Zangief … using this exercise.

Record: Zangief doing cr.lp, cr.lp. cr.lp. st.lk. st.lk xx LPGH … then hold crouch block … then Playback

Ryu can cr.lp and reversal shoryuken 100% of the time, and you can’t block.

Thus even max range far st.lk xx LPGH is 100% punishable on hit.

The only exception to the rule, is if you hit an extended limb with the LPGH, and after Zangief’s body moves forward, your out of range of 3 to 5 frame attacks.

However, having said that, opponents might not be expecting the LPGH, as it is rarely used, and would take them by surprise. As I can’t imagine they would want to stay put to find out. But if they are looking for it, expect to be punished.

Edit: Being -5 on hit, will make 5 frame reversals (eg. Tiger Uppercut, Cannon Spike, Flame Kick) and even 4 frame reversals hard to consistently pull off for the opponent. However, by simply using cr.lp or cr.lk into combo - solves the problem.

Edit: Now Option Select LPGH - that would or could work, on the principle of retracting limb.


#5

Thanks Evan, I think I’ve just been smacking people by surprise, maybe I was confused. Good work!


#6

See with 2 EX Bars there’s some psychology involved.

You can LPGH on hit, and either:
a) Do nothing
b) EX FADC back dash, putting you a bit further away at -10 frames

Now from Ryu’s point of view, he has to:
a) Commit to the punish either with shoryuken or cr.lp - which would allow you to scoop him with LP SPD or better;
b) Do nothing and try to punish the back dash, resulting in you taking damage.

But this gamble would be such a waste of meter. Especially if he does none of the above and jumps away.


#7

Call me crazy but what’s been working is teasing a crouching jab within the normal green hand range just to keep them not ready, like Ryu’s standing short jukes. <BR><BR>Then all of a sudden at a (seemingly) unsuspecting time, I actually jab-greenhand in and ultra 1. The GH hits and they just stand there shocked and get Ultra’d lol.<BR><BR>Sounds super bad but it works on some really good players lol!


#8

I disagree about SPD being a footsie tool. If the opponent has buttons that are slow enough, they have to respect SPD and it’s up to the Gief player to have the reactions to be able to punish these. For example, Dudley f.HP, Ryu/Ken sweep, Cody forward hop-kick. It’s not something you just frequently whiff for the hell of it, but it does have its part in footsies because once you establish that you can whiff punish those normals, st.MP/LK become much more gdlk.<br><br>And no offense, but jab GH to ultra 1/SPD should never work, and if it does then the player got lucky.  Granted, sometimes, that’s what it takes; but that’s not a strat you should incorporate into standard play.<br>


#9

<BLOCKQUOTE class=Quote>
<DIV class=QuoteAuthor><A href="/profile/16999/chief713">chief713</A> said:</DIV>
<DIV class=QuoteText>I disagree about SPD being a footsie tool. If the opponent has buttons that are slow enough, they have to respect SPD and it’s up to the Gief player to have the reactions to be able to punish these. For example, Dudley f.HP, Ryu/Ken sweep, Cody forward hop-kick. It’s not something you just frequently whiff for the hell of it, but it does have its part in footsies because once you establish that you can whiff punish those normals, st.MP/LK become much more gdlk.<BR><BR>And no offense, but jab GH to ultra 1/SPD should never work, and if it does then the player got lucky.  Granted, sometimes, that’s what it takes; but that’s not a strat you should incorporate into standard play.</DIV>
<DIV class=QuoteText> </DIV>
<DIV class=QuoteText>Yes, I react to literally any button press with my SPD. Play me online sometime, or at EVO this year! Green Hand whiff to ultra is just a troll on players, heh. I thought it went without being said, but meh.<BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>


#10

<blockquote class=“Quote”>
<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/13332/Gieft">Gieft</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”>Call me crazy but what’s been working is teasing a crouching jab within the normal green hand range just to keep them not ready, like Ryu’s standing short jukes. <br><br>Then all of a sudden at a (seemingly) unsuspecting time, I actually jab-greenhand in and ultra 1. The GH hits and they just stand there shocked and get Ultra’d lol.<br><br>Sounds super bad but it works on some really good players lol!</div>
</blockquote><p>

It’s only doable when you LPGH into max LP SPD range, where they can only punish you with a long ranged but slower poke, such as MP/MK/HP/HK. If you travel with LPGH too close, its a world of pain. And on hit, your in much more trouble. Face it, on hit of the LPGH, you just got lucky. Against the threat of Ultra 1, the opponent should be either - back dashing, jumping or invincible reversal FADC. So there is no scenario for you to land U1 directly off LPGH. </p><p>However, I would say, that a max ranged LPGH against a character with a 5 frame reversal, like Cammy’s cannon spike, Fei’s Flame kick or Tiger Uppercut - might be an OK gamble, but they should probably nail you with a 4 frame normal xx special move instead.<br></p><p><br></p><blockquote class=“Quote”>
<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/16999/chief713">chief713</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”>I disagree about SPD being a footsie tool. If the opponent has buttons that are slow enough, they have to respect SPD and it’s up to the Gief player to have the reactions to be able to punish these. For example, Dudley f.HP, Ryu/Ken sweep, Cody forward hop-kick. It’s not something you just frequently whiff for the hell of it, but it does have its part in footsies because once you establish that you can whiff punish those normals, st.MP/LK become much more gdlk.<br><br>And no offense, but jab GH to ultra 1/SPD should never work, and if it does then the player got lucky.  Granted, sometimes, that’s what it takes; but that’s not a strat you should incorporate into standard play.<br></div>
</blockquote>

SPD in footsie is like psychic shoryuken in footsies. In terms of pokes, they very much have similar stats. Fast startup and HUGE recovery frames. Which means, you can only land these moves if you are 100% sure, which makes them great as punishment moves. Any other times, your practically gambling. Although, taking risks at max range of LP shoryuken and LP SPD, may reduce the amount of punishment you get.<br>


#11

I don’t think just doing it psychic is something to be relied on regularly, just the fear of it. That’s why I say Gief players have to learn how to grab slow normals. And I don’t know if you’re being sarcastic or not, Gieft, but I’m not suggesting that you try and learn to grab every normal or that it’s something I’m capable of. But there are some, like the ones I listed, that can be grabbed consistently with practice. And I think Gief players need to learn this. I don’t see it often enough and it’s such a powerful trait. I’ve personally been trying to make my scoops like a tripwire so that whenever someone enters L. SPD range, whether it’s a from a slow normal, empty jump or forward dash, I SPD them on reaction. That, and of course, punishes, is how I think L. SPD is best utilized.


#12

That part is true. If I know Sagat’s far st.hk is coming, I can LP SPD it 100% of the time. The only problem is that its used is predictive NOT reactive. And thus depends on exploiting patterns and reads and guessing. If you can consistently grab slow normals, then it simply means your opponent is letting you. For example, with Sagat, feinting far st.lk in place of far st.hk, would allow them to bait out your LP SPD - giving them the chance to land either Ultra during your 60 frames of whiff.

And I think you could re-meta that using whiffed normal throw. This is a part of Zangief’s game I’m looking into, especially with the Fei match-up where they rely on baiting out SPD for the punish


#13

duplicate post


#14

You’re braver than me, haha. I never try to grab Sagat’s normals, even if some of them are slow. And once again, I’m not talking about predictions; I mean actually punishing on reaction. Ryu, Ken, Rufus’ sweep, Dudley f.HP, Cody forward hop kick, Juri f.RH etc. You have to be on your toes a little bit when looking for the sweeps, but for the most, normals like these can be explicitly and consistently punished on reaction.


#15

Sagat doesn’t even seem as hard as he used to, call me crazy, but as I’m nearing 5000PP online and going to more majors, I’m finding that he’s easy as hell to train to fireball for my jump in fierce, also he’s easier to whiff punish than most people think. It might just be jabs or standing strongs, but you can whiff punish ST RH pretty easily. You’ve just gotta be looking for that, and at a safe distance to make it whiff.


#16

^ This. As strange as it may sound, Gief/Sagat is nearly unwinnable, but it’s honest. Gief has options, they’re just not good and have much more risk than reward. But it’s something. I’d rather fight Sagat than Akuma any day.