Breaking Down the Throw Metagame

[exalted]

From my gaming experience, it seems as follows:

Throw beats crouching jab (why is this, don’t they both start up in 3 frames?)
Throw loses to crouching short (but most c.shorts start up in 4 frames so sometimes it ends up in a technical)

crouching jab beats out frame traps (beating them in startup)
crouching short loses to frame traps (gets counterhit)

Lets say I am Yun and throw out an improperly spaced divekick (hits too high) - it seems he can throw me there everytime. Is there anything I can do about this, whether it be mashing reversal, command throw, backdash, etc.?

Also, how do we use non-3f reversals vs wakeup meatys?　Is it totally non-effective to be mashing HK upkicks vs combos as Yun since HK is so slow to come out?　Does that mean our startup get be interrupted?

Finally, what happens in command throw vs command throw situations? Surely we need to know if our command throw can beat Abel/Zangief/T.Hawk/Feilong’s throws.

[Mr.Flowers]

Do you guys want this thread moved? Or leave it as is? We just had a thread clean up.

[Spike]

These are pretty legitimate questions imo. These are a few questions I’ve been wondering as I’ve been leveling up my yun.

[MingoDynasty]

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[Demoninja]

I’ll try, please correct anything that is wrong.

From my gaming experience, it seems as follows:

Throw beats crouching jab (why is this, don’t they both start up in 3 frames?)
Throw loses to crouching short (but most c.shorts start up in 4 frames so sometimes it ends up in a technical)

I think both of these misconceptions.

**I “tested” point 1 by picking 2 balrogs and mashing throw on one controller and jab on the other and throw definitely did not win every time. Obviously that’s not a good way to test but it’s what I saw during my mashing. **

Throw does not lose to cr.short. What I believe you are seeing is people constantly crouch teching tick throws. What happens when you crouch tech is if the other person throws, you get a tech and if they don’t you get a cr.short. So essentially when you see a cr.short “beat” a throw, what’s happening is player A goes for a tick throw, player B cr.techs before player A inputs a throw so a cr.short comes out and hits player A. I’m 99% sure this is what you are seeing happen.

crouching jab beats out frame traps (beating them in startup)
crouching short loses to frame traps (gets counterhit)

This can be answered with one thing, it depends on the frame trap and how well executed it is. Let’s say there’s a frame trap that leaves a 2 frame gap and the player can execute it perfectly every time. If that’s true then that person should be counter hitting every single jab seeing how the fastest jab has a 3 frame start up but the frame trap only leaves 2 frames. Of course no one I know has such perfect and tight frame traps which can explain why you are seeing people mash out of frame traps.

Lets say I am Yun and throw out an improperly spaced divekick (hits too high) - it seems he can throw me there everytime. Is there anything I can do about this, whether it be mashing reversal, command throw, backdash, etc.?

**If you space your dive kick wrong I’m pretty sure there’s nothing you can do seeing how you’ll be in -frames even on hit. Generally I just do the cr.mp os where you input cr.mp, cr.lp, cr.lk at the same time which techs throws if they try to throw and cr.mp will come out if they don’t. **

Also, how do we use non-3f reversals vs wakeup meatys?　Is it totally non-effective to be mashing HK upkicks vs combos as Yun since HK is so slow to come out?　Does that mean our startup get be interrupted?

I actually don’t know anything about i-frames now that I think about it so not gonna touch this one and ask a question of my own. Yun’s lk dp has 5 frames of start up and 7 frames of invincibility. Does this mean that the 5 frames of start up are invincible as well as 2 active frames or does it mean that Yun starts up for 5 frames, THEN the 7 frames of invincibility occur?

Finally, what happens in command throw vs command throw situations? Surely we need to know if our command throw can beat Abel/Zangief/T.Hawk/Feilong’s throws.

This depends on the command grab. If the command grabs are done at the exact same frame, Yun’s should only beat Fei’s and should lose to everyone else. I’m not sure what happens if two command grabs with the same startup are done at the same time. I imagine it’ll be random who wins but I do not know for sure and this part is just a guess.

[MingoDynasty]

Throw beats normal. If both start up at the exact same time, throw will always win.
Throw does not lose to crouching short. Crouching short is a normal just like crouching jab. If a throw and crouching short become active at the very same frame, throw will win, hands down. This is assuming you’re within range of a throw, of course.

Demoninja is correct about the frame traps.

If you badly space your dive kick, then there’s nothing you can do to stop your opponent from punishing you. But if you space your dive kick so it’s about -2 or better, then you’ll still have 1frame or so to backdash or mash dp. I just arbitrarily picked -2 because most characters have a 3f startup move like cr.LP or dp.

Yun’s LK dp has 5frames invincible startup, and 2frames invincible active. 5+2 = 7frames of invincibility.
It depends on what kind of meaty. If it’s a safe jump, don’t bother. Your opponent will land and recover in time to block your reversal. If it’s just your opponent doing meaty cr.LK on your wakeup, also don’t bother. Upkicks will whiff on crouchers, except HK and EX, though they are the most risky reversals to attempt.

HK as a reversal during combos is not entirely useless. A reversal for combos doesn’t necessarily have to be as fast as a 3f dp to be effective. Just as long as it is fast enough to hit your opponent before he recovers after the gap. For example, if Ryu does cr.LP , cr.LP (non chained) with perfect timing, then in between the cr.LP is a 1f gap to start your reversal. Meanwhile, Ryu is still recovering from his second cr.LP (approximately 11frames) so your 8frame HK Upkicks reversal will beat him out of it.

I dunno anything about the properties of Yun’s command grab. I dunno anything about command grab vs command grab either.

I could be wrong with my info. If so, feel free to correct me.

[nekoken]

I dunno anything about the properties of Yun’s command grab. I dunno anything about command grab vs command grab either.

From what I’ve tested EX command grab is throw invincible. It doesn’t have strike invincibility. Non Ex grab has no special properties.

I found EX grab quite useful against people mashing throw after blocking a divekick. It’s also pretty good after a blocked ex lunge.

[m16ghost]

Command grab vs command grab results in a random winner.

I corrected the wiki on Yun’s EX command grab- it’s throw invincible to recovery, but I left that out of the notes.

IMO, these questions aren’t specific to Yun and should be moved.

[SoVi3t]

Command grab vs command grab results in a random winner.

.

Yup…there was a video on the front page months ago that showed this

[Dustlooper]

Command grab vs command grab results in a random winner.

That can’t be the case. Certain command throws have a certain amount of frames of active frames and invinc. frames. That’s why Abel doing a TT (which has six frames of throw invic. iirc) will beat Gief’s SPD, super, and ultra consistently.

IIRC, the twins have throw invic. on their EX command throw (eight frames). So, EX command throw should consistently beat things that I prior mentioned. If you go to training mode as Gief and record a Yang sweeping then doing EX command throw on wake-up, you should see that SPD, super, and U1 all lose to EX command throw (assuming frame data is correct).

[nekoken]

^^ I think they meant two command grabs with no grab invincibility going against each other. Like two Yuns doing command grab at the exact same moment.

[Reversal]

That’s what they were referring to. IIRC, the video on SRK’s front page about the random outcome of simultaneous command grabs featured two Seths.

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