Buffs / Nerfs wath do you think would improfe the balance for our Russian Friend?

zangief

#1

Here are my Suggestions:

Greenhand:
Jab-Version
give him back his old motion from SSF2T so he can catch fireballs with it (low and high)
with -1/-3 frameadvantage on hit/block (almost save - can be used for combos but not for blockstring pressure)
Strong-Version
make it his Jab-Version from SF4 with -3 on hit (possible to punish but realy hard!)
Firce-Version
slightly increase the frameadvantage on hit to -8 but raise his damage around 60 its unsave on hit so high damage would possible make it in some situiations usefull like lifeadvantage and a nice punisher on airborn enemys
EX-Version
first hit deals 120 second hit 40dmg since Giefs damage is greatly reduced and excanceling a lariat would then make sence!

Lariat:
PP
make it only a PP version with slightly less damage 100 and ad a EX-Version slightly higher the hitinvulnerability so its easyer to sweap him out
KK
make it only KK version with slightly less damage only 90 (but althou startup invul to fireballs so sagat can not wakeup fireball you) and ad a EX-Version
EX KKK/PPP
one Spin 110dmg save on block (juggle ability)

SPD:
damagereduce so it deals 180/200/220 from jab to firce and startup one frame higher

Supplex:
damagereduce to 200

RBG:
speed the whole thing up so it is usefull like HDR and make it possible to ex cancel the whole run for nice trapsetups

Super:Give him a EX-Hand rampage move with around 350 dmg like EX-Hand and then some nice and fast hands after

Ultra: damagereduce to 500


#2

Gief is not over powered so I dont think nerfs are in order. I think he actually needs a few buffs to help with some matchup problems.

Standard GH needs a bigger hitbox so it can stuff fireballs better. And also should be safe on hit.

Running Bear grab should be fast so it is usefull again.

Dash needs to be faster so focus becomes an option(if not forward dash then backdash.)

If he got those few things the matchup issues would be gone. People couldnt run away as much because like in ST you could greenhand back to an attacking distance.


#3

actualy he is quite powerfull against the most of the count but hafe some realy bad matchups against sagat / seth and a painfull against blanka

so if you buff him he REALY need nerfs^^ or else he would be on the same spot then sagat… therefor i would reduce his damage a bit on the lariat (would reduce spamming) and give him better juggle damage instead and since the normal greenhand would be usefull he realy can use the meter somewhere else

maybe is Focusatack should be a bit more like the one from able but that whoul resuld in a broken zangief… i think…

and the problem with catching fireballs with greenhand is not the hitbox it is the forwardmotion AFTER the greenhand this moves him in danger if you remove this like mentioned earlyer it would greatly increas the catching proppertys of greenhand and therefore you could stand sagat/seth much fairer


#4

I can’t think of anything ‘right’ for changing Gief at all. IMO he SHOULD have an air throw in some shape or form, but air throws in this game are way to borked for that to be even partially sane.

His s.mk’s could use some love, but his other normals all have some good use.

I’d like GH to be more useful, at least at crushing fbs and helping to get in, having to rely on EXGH is a serious issue, its like playing as Hakumen or something. But ‘neh’.

Now there is a small ‘tweak’ I’d like on the EXGH. I’d like the portion of the animation where he’s turning around, and his hand is starting the d/f arc, to be a reversal/hitable state. Nothing sucks more than being crushed by a hurricane kick when you had perfect timing and everything.

I don’t care about lariat…just leave the AA properties and I’m happy.

  • :bluu:

#5

st.MK gets alot of Love from me. Its one of my more often used normals in the Ryu matchup. That hanging hit it does stops alot of fireballs at the end of blockstrings, and stuffs cr.MK/HKs.

What I would like to see, what they’ve never done before, is a Cancelable RGB. That would be so nice if they made the start up speed like it used to and I could just straight chase akuma instead of having to be unsafe sometimes with Ghand.


#6

Three things:
1.GH is just fine at stuffing fireballs, you just have to learn to compensate for the forward motion. Its not hard, it just takes some practice, and it works GREAT.

2.Gief doesnt need damage reduction at all. He has alot of damage output, but he NEEDS every last point of it to stay on even footing. The advantage your perceiving is an illusion caused by the fact that alot of his damage is focused in two mechanics that most average to above-average players dont actually know how to cope with, namely anti-wakeup and throws.

3.If i were going to give geif anything It would be some kind of air-to-air throw, not a really spectacular one, maybe a low damage knockdown that puts you in a nice spot for wakeup on success but leaves you wide open on a whiff, or a wallbounce, since geif doesnt have one. Either way it would need to be punishable.

Edit:
4.or heres a thought find some way to make RBG NOT complete crap. Im not asking for invincibility here, just SOMETHING to make at least somewhat useable, since right now unless you use the EX its just a moving taunt, and even with the EX its only good if your opponent is pretty terrible.


#7

Nerf him! He’s like third or fourth on the tier list.


#8

Oh yeah I use s.mk myself, especially in the shoto match-up for JUST the reason you said, but I’d like for it to get a little ‘something’ to make it more useful than that one match up…the other people with fireball spamming capabiliy have either a longer reach on pokes (Sagat/Rose/Sim) or their pokes/counters that you would try and possibly counter withit are just TOO quick/potent (Guile/Gouken).

I don’t have a real suggestion for it either as its not like the move is borked, changing the timing on it, would defeat the ‘late hit’ effect/ability, and more range would change move properties a bit too much…so I dunno to be honest ‘how’ to change it…maybe make it an easy link with something else ?_? shrug

  • :bluu:

#9
  1. Make lp GH -1 or -2 on hit (Being bloody unsafe on block is fine).

  2. Fix the issue of max range EX GH whiffing on one hit and leaving Gief at heavy - frames.

  3. As a nerf, change Lariat’s overall priority on the ground, but keep its AA properties or speed up c.MP.

  4. Give RBG a reasonable startup.


#10

yea the only thing i would like would be his fireball crushing GH properties. They gave that move to gief in the first place to give him a way to deal with fireballs and advance at the same time, where now its not really that useful. even if you do crush it, a lot of the times it still takes too long to recover. nothing is more frustrating than crushing a fireball and hitting the ultra, only to see them jump out of it. not really sure how they could fix that but other than that i wouldn’t do anything.


#11

The only thing I’d like to see on the green hand front is for green hand to neutralize fireballs as Gief swings his hand around and kind of over his head; as he does that, his hand should neutralize fireballs that are high up (ie Akuma air fireballs, Sagat high tiger shots, Gouken’s mp fireball, and Seth’s sonic boom). On all the rest of the game’s fireballs it should work exactly the same way it does now. This seems like a pretty solid way to make him better in his bad matchups without getting any better against everyone else, which is obviously good. I think the green hand’s crappy recovery on block and hit is fine. While I think making the first hit do more damage while keeping the total damage the same is interesting, I don’t really think Gief needs to be given more damaging moves and combos.

I’d like to see far standing mk become safe on hit and not terrible on block. Gief is largely a footsie character, so for one of his potentially most important footsie attacks to be so ridiculously unsafe and to hang out for sooo long on whiff is pretty weird. Even when timed as late as possible it’s still punishable on block by lots of characters’ normal attacks, let alone specials and supers. It has as many frames of recovery as his sweep, so cut its recovery from 18 frames to something like 11-12 (ie still a little more than his far standing strong’s 10 frames) and it’d be great. Keep the long active frames.

For punch lariats, after the first swing I’d like to see both his hittable hitbox and his active hitting hitbox shrink at his legs and mid section. That way the opponent could punish him without having to worry about getting popped, but at the same time the opponent could only punish if he was a little closer to Zangief and the lariat would still be useful predictively. This is kind of a buff at higher levels of play and kind of a nerf at lower levels, both of which are good.

I’d like to see kick lariat move faster horizontally so that it’s a little more useful. I’d like to get through low tiger shots faster and I’d like to move a little farther against a Dhalsim low limb than I currently can.

Giving lariats a 2p or 2k input for regular and 3p or 3k for ex is an interesting idea, but I’m too worried about the horrible sloppy input system 4 has and how that might conflict with ex hand in annoying ways. And in any case, I don’t think the lariats need to be changed THAT much.

Crouching short should recover in 6 frames, not 7. I don’t know about you guys, but for me that cr. short xN combo is hard. This change would basically do nothing except make that combo a little easier and make Gief’s footsies almost imperceptibly better, which are both good imo.

Ex spd should start up a frame faster. It has 4 frames now, as opposed to regular spd’s 2, which restricts its usefulness in some situations. It’s a good move, but it could be a bit better for punishing and on wakeup.

Here’s the biggest buff: I want super to be totally different. I don’t want the EX-series stomps like I know lots of people do, since I think Gief’s combo damage and buffered jab/short footsies are already strong enough. What I want is an invincible and very fast running bear grab that does like 300-350 damage (instead of the 500 his super is currently at), activates its throw immediately upon getting into range, and has a qcf qcf motion. The range on the throw should be just like the current super’s range, ie in between RBG’s and fierce spd’s ranges. The opponent would be able to jump out if you did it randomly from outside of its grabbing range, but you could make him land into it as an antiair and could use it to punish lots of things, and if you did it point blank it could grab immediately like the current super. If you did it point blank it would be 300, and if not it would be 350 (note that 300 damage is less than most characters’ supers and 350 is like average-ish).

Gief currently has no reason to save meter for super, since his ex spd is good and his ex hand is totally sick and his super is totally superfluous (does less damage and has less range than ultra). A RBG super would be useful in different ways and would give Gief players an actual reason to at least consider saving meter.

Ok, so buff buff buff. You can’t buff a high or high mid tier character without nerfing him just a little. So how about nerfs?

Jab spd and ex hand should do less damage. Gief should be rewarded for getting in and should be good at mid range so he can get in, but his reward for just being at mid range shouldn’t be as strong as it currently is. Jab spd should do like 180 instead of 200 and ex hand should do 70-70 or even 60-60 instead of the current 80-80.

Punch lariat’s antiair properties need to be nerfed as well, since it’s stupid for a character like Zangief to be so good defensively (especially when he already has some great normal attack antiairs). I think what I’d do is just make Gief’s head and his backwards facing shoulder a little more vulnerable. That way it would still be fine as an antiair from certain ranges, like regular jump-ins, but it would be more susceptible to certain jumps and crossups than it is now. Note that nerfing the lariat in this way wouldn’t change its properties against almost any grounded attack.

Also, kick lariat’s hitting hitbox should be nerfed all around. Not so bad that it sucks, but for a move that’s invincible low and that I want to move faster, it shouldn’t hit quite as well as it currently does. I’m especially thinking of the lower down section; does it really need to hit on the floor when it’s already invincible there?

Plus, just take running bear grab out of the game. Gief doesn’t need it, he might be too good if it was actually useful, and it can get in the way of some motions. The idea of the bear grab has always been good, but it’s never actually been useful in more than just a couple situations (well, until HDR anyway).

By the way, as for a game-wide tweak that could apply to Gief, I’d like to see all launching attacks (ie lariat, dragon punch, etc) not launch the opponent quite as high on trades. This is mostly so that Ryu and Sagat don’t get free ultra after trading an antiair dragon punch, but it might also make it so that Gief can’t trade antiair lariat into one hit of ex hand as well too. If it does, I think that’s fine. Remember, even without a hand combo, a traded lariat still puts Gief in a position where he gets a free meaty setup, which is a very strong payoff for Gief.

So basically, I want Gief to be a little better at setting up and dealing damage (a little more mobile, a little better in footsies, have slightly easier combos), but I want his payoff for doing so to be slightly less and I want him to have to depend more on playing zoning and offense than on playing defense. I think that would make him a little smarter, a little better in his bad matchups, and a little less dominant in his good matchups.

–Buffs:
-----Green hands neutralize high fireballs but stay the same relative to regular fireballs
-----Far standing forward kick has less recovery
-----Punch lariat first swing anti-ground hitbox is the same, but after that its hitting and hittable hitboxes at Gief’s legs and midsection are both shrunk (ie safer for the opponent to punish up close, but less punishable from a distance)
-----Kick lariat moves faster horizontally
-----Crouching short recovers 1 frame faster
-----Ex spd has 3 frames of startup instead of 4
-----Super is a very fast and invincible running bear grab that does 300 damage point blank, 350 damage from farther away, activates its throw instantly on getting into the range of the current super, and has a qcf motion

–Nerfs:
-----Jab spd does a little less damage
-----Ex green hand does a little less damage
-----Punch lariat’s hitbox is slightly nerfed at Gief’s head and backwards facing arm
-----Kick lariat’s overall hitting hitbox is shrunk, especially towards the ground
-----Regular running bear grab is removed completely
-----Traded antiar lariat to ex hand juggle is harder or impossible


#12

I think his alt costume should be nerfed and he should be given one like Abel’s


#13

So with “Super SF4” getting closer and closer, I’ve put a bit more thought into all this. Since we don’t know the possible engine changes jus rumors…some of this is ‘changeable’ based on engine changes.

  1. I agree with UD on the KKK lariat. With faster horizontal spin, it makes a great alternate to GH for fireball games, and IMO it would help greatly in the Sagat fight (it wouldn’t change it to even by far, but it would be a GREAT tool for pressure and making Sagat second guess his options.

  2. I can’t stress this enough, and Gief isn’t the only person I’d like this change…the ability to FADC, FADC-able moves at any time. Being able to FADC lariat only during the first rotation is damn near useless…its only good if you have two bars and one hit wil lseal the victory. It wouldn’t let him ‘dance’ around ultras/supers as his hitbox and recovery frames still leaves him open for punishment after an FADC. this isn’tt a major change that would really alter match-ups, but t would improve his mind game options.

  3. Cut the frame recovery on his FA. The range it has is nice, but its so damn useless in its current form. If the probable nerf to lariat’s AA ability happens, giving him the FA AA option especially with his height would be a good compromise. Its still punishable, still hits ‘high’, but gains some use.

  4. EX SPD. Buff it. Why doesn’t it have current SPD ability + some like most EX moves do? Ryu isn’t in recovery longer and his EX fireball doesn’t take longer to come out. why should ours?

  5. RBG…I’m nervous on this one…it depends on the rumored multi-hit absorption stuff, but I’d like the EX RBG to travel faster. It has decent speed now, but its still…to quote others “a running taunt”. Make it scary by increasing the speed…would make it good fireball bait at mid range against the likes of Sagat/Rose. The dmg would in turn need to be reduced however.

  6. I concur with cutting a frame off c.lk …I struggle to combo it despite my practice…I hardly ever go into training mode or anything, but thats the one thing I have tried to teach myself to no avail on consistency. Sometimes I get 4 hits…sometimes I can’t get more than 1. Its such an important move to Gief, it sucks that the execution barrier limits its appeal to alot of folks.

  7. Anti-air changes. Current AA options…c.lariat, s.jab, s.rh, c.mp. I’m recommending a series of changes to balance out lariat.
    a) Lariat gains more vulnerability at the head. You can still c.lariat and hold BACK to try and protect ya neck, but you are more likely to trade than before. to counter the current abuse of the ‘pop’ effect, I also recommend the knockback of lariat be increased. It still puts Gief in a favorable position, and a kara-GH should still connect, but the difficulty of capitalizing on lariat needs to be increased a little bit. Currently I get like two hops OVER their body laying on the ground…thats too much time due to the lack of horizontal difference.
    b) c.mp is sped up, yes I ripped this from above this post, but yes I agree with it. Its a valuable AA that seems akward because of the timing of it compared to other crouching normals used as AAs
    c) rh, becomes three moves. Currently it is two. At close he does the flip kick thingy, and far away he does his ‘hop fwd and boot in the face’ kick. both should be maintained, but I’d recommend changing it to hold foward and rh for the current far rh, and normal st. rh is the same animation but stationary. this will allow you to defend jumps at different heights if you are aware of your opponents moves, and requires mroe skill than the current version of lariat.
    some of these tweaks are based on the current engine not getting large changes

  8. d/f Rh, Gief’s hitbox extends ‘up’ before he gets up it seems (see Sagat RH to the face on reaction), I think Gief’s hitbox should stay lower longer. Not substantially, but enough to help in this particular match up where trying to just inch your way in is met with very harsh resistance.

  9. the option to force a DP motion for a DP and to force a 360 for SPD. I know standing 360s are sexy, but I cringe everytime I’m blocking back and go for a exgh to counter something especially when bulldogging against say Ryu and a EX SPD attempt comes out. Read similar issues with Bison teleport/ultra.

  10. do SOMETHING with Gief’s hp. Outside of jumping, they all seem to suck. C.FP has some AA properties and decent range, but like st.fp? what the pipe for does it exist?

  • :bluu:

#14

Seems Zangief is getting an air ultra that’s a 720. OH BOY.


#15

I think Gief is fine as is…I think I found a decent use for running bear grab as well but me being an 09’er and not really known like that I doubt you guys would want to hear anything I have to say…:coffee:


#16

I don’t know when to use RBG . . . it still is definitely a useless move for me. I’ve read about getting Guile at his c.rh but I always fail to do it.

Agreed with s.fp. I hardly ever touch his fp. Plus it’s slow on the recovery.

I think he also needs an airthrow lolz, and I’ve mentioned this a few times in other threads. Otherwise, I really dont’ know what else I’d change with Gief. Perhaps his EX SPD?? Weird properties there . . . being umm . . . slower than normal SPD?? Strange how that is . . . it does look like it grabs faster but hey . . . i dunno?


#17

air grab? people complain about fighting Gief enough if he had that he would be kinda broken IMO him having the Jumping head butt and crouching mp or lariat as anti air’s isn’t enough? as well as standing hk??? you don’t think air grab wouldn’t be pileing it on a bit?..as far as running bear grab I use it to go through moves I know it can go through that will lead to him getting his grab I need to test it tho I don’t own a 360 or PS3 yet…but like that one kick with Chun li where she flips and comes down on you wouldn’t it work well in that situation (if you see the move) and do thr EX running bear grab she’ll hit you once and upon landing she will get Big Sexied I did it to my friend that was playing bison as well I believe I did the EX running bear grab after he did a block string into ex siccors only the first siccor hit came out and he caught a power bomb for it…but…when I further test it I will be sure for now I am just sayin what I seen from what I was thinking while playing…


#18

This is all redundant.


#19

Nerf:

  1. his ultra so when you get hit with it, you’re full screen away rather than a few inches for him to easily jump back on you and finish you off…
  2. his lariat so it can’t be an all-purpose anti-poke. at the very least it should never hit crouching opponents or stuff low kicks.

and don’t ever give him an air throw! I would seriously quit the game if he had that along with his headbutt.


#20

nerf ultra damage
make his dash faster
fa better
lariat so it doesnt have that safe last hit bs,and so you can punish it mid move better
rbg useful somehow?
ex spd make it like rufus ex galactic tornado…lol
a way to fight s.fk of sagat, preferably make his df fk get small
make c.lk get small to go under tiger knee
nerf akuma teleport
ex hand tag blocked blanka ball
second ultra or new super should be antiair in nature