C-Sagat vs Bison Matchup


#1

Alright, I know this belongs more in character specific than general strategy, but I’m hoping to get some kind of disscussion going since people look here more than they do character specific.

Have Bison block Sagat s.LP, s.LP, d.HP, or use the lines on the floor of the training mode stage. The range is exactly where Bison is at after blocking the two Sagat jabs and low fierce, or two training mode “squares”.

Have Bison normal jump at you. At the peak of the jump, hit j.LK.

What can Sagat do to deal with this jump?

I’m using Sagat and try to DP. Even when I duck down and do it as late as possible, I go under Bison’s jump and completely whiff every single time. My High Tiger Super also whiffs.

If I try to Mago It? and jump back fierce as my anti-air, the Bison early jumping short cleanly stuffs me air-to-air .

I can’t walk under the short for a cross-up DP because Sagat is big and the short has a big cross-up hit box.

I can’t walk back and DP because proximity guard gets in the way.

I can’t anti-air with crouching fierce, because the j.LK stays out for a long time and will counter hit me, letting Bison combo into Scissors, CC xx death.

Late air block doesn’t appear to work against ANY of Bison’s normal jumping attacks. He still lands before me every single time.


Possible solutions?

I saw Nakanishi constantly try to bait Bison into jumping in by standing up and walking back. When the jump does come, he’s no longer in the annoying range and can easily duck down and DP consistently.

Aside from preemptively walking back and staying out of range, are there any other ways for Sagat to deal with Bison using this jump?

I get the “turn-around” DP that I want sometimes (I input dp+HP, not the hcb “cross-up” DP), but I don’t know how to do it whenever I want. Anybody know the trick to it if there is one?

Never sit and wait for Bison to jump maybe? Whenever you recognize that you’re sitting at the range where it’s difficult to DP, take a step closer. That way you can consistently and easily “cross-up” DP every single time Bison takes the bait and still jumps.


Just as annoying as midscreen Bison jumping at you from his sweet spot…

Sagat gets a free duck down, deep dp+HP every single time Bison uses jump in HK on him in the corner. If Bison switches it up to j.LK though…

Sagat needs to walk under and input a cross-up DP/super. This can get really annoying Sagat when Bison keeps mixing up which jumping attack he uses.

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I’ll share whatever tricks I have, and explain the basics I use in this matchup if anybody wants to hear too, if somebody can give me some good tips or basic strategy I can use to deal with Bison jumping in on me.

A vid a of good C-Sagat player fighting against an equally good or better A-Team/Bison user would be even better.

Kim (if you’re reading):
You don’t have any vids of you playing against Combofiend using Bison do you?


#2

try jump back (or super jump back) j.LK, j.LP, j.MP

if neither of those work, early dp+LP, or air-block -> dp+HP


#3

Try rolling out the situation, if anti-airing becomes difficult. This leaves Sagat at an advantage IMO because Sagat has better ground game than Bison, so bison would have find another situation/instance to get in. I have thought about doing mago’s ugly shit of cross up roll low tiger super when they jump. It similar along the lines as Dudleys Ducking the cross up jumps and Corkscrew Blow. Haven’t tested it out or see how it would work on Bison. I doubt this could work on Bison but who knows it could. If your confused in what i’m talking about, watch the OTK vs Mago on Kim’s site, the Rock vs Sagat. OTK does low jump roundhouse and mago rolls behind him and super.


#4

Ok i recorded bison doing that block string. When bison jumps at you with lk at the peak of his jump, it is VERY posible to punish him with a lvl 3 super. the super doesn’t miss… And another possibility that is kinda out of your way, is to anticipate it, and RC tiger upercut(RC since j.lk always trades)…


#5

Only possible solution…

Trade with jump back fierce. It does just as much damage as a clean fierce TU (2100 damage).
The downside, you have to be a bit psychic and jump back fierce as soon as you see it, no waiting.

But honestly, I wouldn’t even do that string because Bison can do a one hit scissor. The bad thing is, if you do st. jab ,cr. fierce its even harder to hit Bison out of the jump short.


#6

In Sagat’s favor. Just trade it.


#7

Bison does about 700 damage, the tiger uppercut(1 hit) is really little damage, and from what it seems, when it trades, Sagat is NOT in favor by a bit…But it does stop him from doing j.lk, i say, go for the lvl 2/3 tiger shot… Another thing you can do, is… s.lp, s.lp, c.hp, dash back, see if bison does his j.lk, if he does, super or RC tiger. This is pretty much the same thing as,NOT dashing back but you’re open to more options with this, and if he doesn’t jump, you space yourself away from bison(spacing could be good or bad,depends on playing style)


#8

Damn my bad, I misread that…
I meant jump back RH. I thought we were talking about that.
Jump back Rh trades in favor, as does fierce, but yes, 1 hit TU doesn’t do shit.

Sorry. :frowning:


#9

i tried testing this out, and late air-block, dp doesn’t work, but you can late air-block throw/jab mixup.

if bison is doing j.LK in the middle of his jump to beat all your shit, nothing will work except roll, block, or perfect lvl2 tiger cannon. by perfect tiger cannon, i mean, you absolutely have to stay crouching during it, or one of your motions will move you forward a pixel and it will whiff completely. if you try and walk back to dp+HP him, it won’t work cause his j.LK is out making you sit in block position. but since sagat is crazy tall, and it’s only a j.LK, you can stand up, take the hit, then jab/throw/dp to beat his jabs. I believe if you time it right, you can take the hit with the top of your head, reversal dp and he can’t do shit.

if he’s sticking out j.LK late so it’ll combo on you when you’re standing, you can jump back j.LK him out of it cleanly, or as i said block, roll, lvl2.

man kang, how do you find all these obscure hard to anti-air setups. this range seems to apply to all of bison’s jump ins too, but i think LK is just the hardest to AA with a jump back.


#10

Trade with an early Strong DP. You get 1134. If you have level 2, use level 2 tiger raid and after that, do roundhouse tiger knee for 4799 total damage. If you had level 3, you can opt to do level 1 high tiger super after the level 2 for 6174. If the level 2 didn’t hit for all the hits, you can land a fierce DP afterwards.

No one quote this. kcxj has me on ignore.:rofl:


#11

Play with Big Head and Som more. They love this dumb magic distance jump I’m talking about, so I didn’t find anything. The only reason I listed the block string is for distancing purposes only, so anybody who doesn’t know the distance already (or what I’m even talking about) can reproduce it for themselves at home.

No need to ever dash back in this match I think. What you’re saying sounds like the exact same thing as walking back to try and bait the jumps (only you need to watch out for random crusher or scissors now).

I actually like walk forward one step, cross-up DP if he jumps more, since it pays to keep advancing with Sagat on the ground against Bison IMO. You can guard break Bison he sits there worried about his charge instead of using his far s.MP. If you take baby steps and stay cautious, you can bait out accidental two hit scissors and flinch RC crushers also.

Thing is that Bison has a fast walk speed and he’s usually the one that controls the distance from where he wants to jump in from though. The annoying thing is that JUST outside of my far s.LK range (the main move I use to keep him out and control him), is the sweet spot for him to jump in at me.

I’m about to start trying random far stand fierces whenever I think Bison is going to jump now. Punch him as he’s leaving the ground.

I hate rolling away from jump ins so much. It’s free damage with a DP for me whenever A-Groove jumps at me without meter to random CC through. I’m starting to wonder if I also might need to start doing that when I recognize I’m at the distance where it’s going to be hard to anti-air though.

P.S.
Tiger Uppercut is fully invincible against all jumps in already, so there’s no need to ever RC it as anti-air I’m pretty sure also. Unless you’re telling me to try out RC High Tiger shot as anti-air…

OK there, Mr. Popular. :wink:


#12

Im telling you to RC TU cuz it trades with j.lk… Or yeah, gunters option is ok also, trade with mp uppercut.

You shouldn’t ALWAYS try to Tiger uppercut the jump ins because bison can activate throw them and then you’re fucked. Pay attention to bison’s meter, random sciccors yes, those too.

SMART bisons will know to do s.mp’s as you advance. In reality charge is only 1 second, 1 second is pretty much nothin in Cvs2 and you can get it back hella quick, i pretty much learned this as i started to use guile. Dont always worry about that stupid charge…


#13

He can’t activate if he’s stuck out a short, so you should always try to DP those. In the case of a trade, everything you have that will trade with it… will be more damaging.


#14

dp+HP does not trade with bison j.LK, in his example it whiffs completely when done deep (whereas it will beat everything). RC dp+HP will only increase your chances of it whiffing. he’d be better off doing RC dp+HK to get out of the way or simply rolling out of the way. and to correct: smart bisons know to do s.mp’s as THEY advance, because if they don’t, they’ll never get anywhere on the ground vs sagat. s.LK, c.HP, and c.MK all shut down bison if he doesn’t keep walking in with s.LP and s.MP to put sagat on the defensive.

I don’t know who “Big Head” is, but I think i’m gonna play with chase and VDO tomorrow, if this snow doesn’t beast philly.


#15

Gunter - Yeah, that was a stupid mistake on my account.
Ragnafrak - The uppercut will NOT whiff if you react fast enough, you will only whiff completely if you wait until the last moment to uppercut.


#16

Oh yeah, that’s a good idea. I understand what you’re saying now. Do RC uppercut early (or just do a strong uppercut early), since I get a knockdown even if I do trade or only get one hit or something.

I’m getting better at being able to judge on the fly which jumps I can deep DP, which jumps I need to cross-up dp, and which jumps will make me whiff. I’m going to try uppercutting earlier from now on to see how that works for me.


I don’t know why people kept telling me to do jump back attacks. I even wrote that the Bison jumping short coming down on top of you would stuff everything you try. (the reason I can’t Mago anti-air it)

I understand what you meant with the RC uppercut now though. I don’t picture myself doing that on a consistent basis, since the only way to DP Bison’s other jumping angles is to duck down and DP as late at possible, but I’m definitely going to consider it as the preferable alternative over just blocking the j.LK or rolling away from now on.

Where’s parry, mash on fierce when I need it?


#17

I might have the range wrong… but I am pretty sure these all work:

  1. Stay ducking into lvl 2 high tiger
  2. Stand up right away when he jumps, into HP DP… beats it clean… but you have to stand early to stop him from crossing you up.
  3. Early MP DP trade (gunter’s suggestion)
  4. Roll early in jump to cr MK into super… easiest, safest option… and does alot of damage.

#18

are you use #2 works? I could never get the uppercut to beat him, under any circumstance.
#1 might work, i have instances when i did the tiger late and bison crossed me over, and i did tiger right to his face in his recovery…

KCXJ - just practice reacting to an early jump and trade with mp, its highly in your favor. Just like you said, you get a knockdown, and you lose their momentum and gain back yours. Also practice doing high tiger cannon on their jump in, thats probably your best option if you have meter.

Edit:

you use an HRAP right kang? Just curious


#19

i do this vs chun jumping short as well if i dont have time to jump back.


#20

does that j.lk still combo if bison does it at the peak of the jump? If it doesnt, it means another option is to take the hit then uppercut/super him before he lands.

if you stand up, it probrably won’t combo, since it’d hit too early.