Cammy General Discussion: To Bee or not to Bee

cammy

#3381

@Happy_Birthday_Rika One thing I didn’t take into consideration was the v trigger nerf, so v-trigger 1 one does do less damage making V trigger 2 significantly better.

I’ve been testing VTII and this is what I’ve figured out so far tonight. Because of the activation nerf the combo used doesn’t matter much upon activation. If you activate from st hp or cr hp you are looking around 270 damage no matter what and it doesn’t use a charge. When you compare this to one charge of v Trigger for 260 damage its a little better. One plus is delta step works off st hk, so on hit you can go from delta step into TC, so it’s like getting a far away st hk CC into dash TC but without the crush counter. It is kind of tight to pull off though so you definitely need to be anticipating the st hk hit and be ready to hit F+HP+HK.

SPECIAL NOTE ON ALL COMBOS LISTED BELOW: If you go into TC and you are in the corner make sure to use MK DP, and not HK DP otherwise it will whiff, however if you go into CA after this make sure you use HK CA otherwise it will whiff. The alternative is to go into cr or st lp before TC but it increases damage scaling. If you chose to go into SA for corner carry use MK SA, unless in corner use LK SA so you can do an EX DP afterwords.

Optimal uses off VTII activation (if you’ve found better let me know. This is off non counter hit combos only)

  1. st mp, st hp, delta step, TC, HK DP (268/445)
  2. cr hp, delta ambush + k, TC, HK DP (269/440)

Safe uses after VTII activation
2. st hp, delta step leaves you +2 in their face on hit and -2 on block. On hit allows for an easy grab or shimmy set up. I imagine this being used as reset vs going for an ender.
3. cr hp, delta step, cr lp, TC, HK DP (274/483). Leaves you at +3 on hit and 0 on block. I find you need to hold down forward when doing cr hp in order to confirm this into delta step then the cr lp. Might just be me but I keep randomly getting delta ambush if I try and confirm it.
4. cr hp (CH), delta step, ( you can do cr mp here if opponent was counter hit while crouched otherwise go straight to TC), TC, HK DP (298/490 sans cr mp) (326/540 with cr mp). Leaves you at +5 on counter hit.
5. st hk, delta step, TC, HK DP (292/460). Leaves you at +4 on hit and -2 on block.

You can use any of the normals listed above and do delta ambush instead of delta setp making a guess if they are going to block low or high. If you are wrong you are pretty much dead, so be smart about it’s use. If you get an overhead hit go for TC, HK DP (272/410). If you get the grab go st hp, HK DP (288/295). Make note that jab can easily knock you out just like hooligan, putting you at a disadvantage right in their face, so I don’t recommend even risking this against grapplers unless you have a solid read.

Also with VT II active Cammy now has a new max damage combo off of CC st hk. It used to be st hk (CC) cr mp, hk DP, CA for
510 damage. New max damage combo is st hk (CC), delta ambush (must already be active), punch grab, st hp, hk dp, CA for 559. If you do it from v trigger II activation it only does 462 because of the activation scaling nerf, but this is definitely the go to now if you block a DP. I’m telling you man DPs are not worth using in this game anymore with the damage CCs can put out now. Laura and Gief look even scarier this season on CC.


#3382

Regarding blockstrings:

Lost:
-stlk crlk crlp arrow (use stlk crlk stlp instead)
-stlk crlp stlp crmp blockstring
-?

New:
-crlp crlp TC on crouchers
-crlp crlk stlp arrow
-crlp crlp stmp crmk frametrap*
-crlp crlp crmp sthp frametrap*
-anything else?

  • Haven’t tested it but it should be possible

By the way I recommend everyone hop in here and check out hitbox changes: https://sfvsim.com/diff/CMY/

Summary for the lazy:
-St.lp: Nerfed as an AA
-B.mp: Hurtbox goes further up, hitbox went down. Hitbox no longer goes beyond hurtbox.
-St.hk: Hurtbox on her leg is smaller on all active frames now. Hitbox didn’t change a thing.
-Cr.HP: Hurtbox extended up for some reason.


#3383

Can confirm b. mp trades or loses to cross up way more now (I thought they were making anti air moves better and none intentional anti airs like jab worse). Let me know what you recommend to deal with cross ups. They said st hk hits behind her in the notes but I’m not seeing that happen with cross ups at all. The hit box would need to have been adjusted to go behind her as well but that wasn’t adjusted.

Cr hk also got the hurt box removed for one frame before it becomes active making it near impossible to interrupt only trade, making it a small buff.

None of these hit box changes are what I was expecting. Whiff punishing is going to be just as difficult and anti airing just got worse. I thought they were going for more neutral play?


#3384

Another thing: The range on cr.lp was reduced. Take it into account before doing cr.lp x arrow after divekicks now.


#3385

After c HP, v trigger 2, I’m having trouble timing my button after the dash. Juri’s new v trigger 2 is the same. Button, activate, then after the super flash from the activation, Juri’s new v trigger 2 has a long pause where there’s a hit. Only after the super flash, then the long pause, similar to Cammy’s new v trigger 2, can you continue the combo.

I’m just saying there’s a long pause where the potential to drop the v trigger 2 combo is huge.

That’s a great point. By nerfing c LP’s range, they’ve nerfed Cammy’s divekicks too.


#3386

I’m getting the timing down pat on Cammy’s v trigger 2 combos, but something weird:

s hp, f+hp+hk, b+mp is a normal v trigger 2 combo

but after c hp, f+hp+hk, s mp, s hp, f+hp+hk, b+mp is able to be blocked!

After c hp, f+hp+hk, s mp, s hp, hp+hk,k for the kick overhead, the jump kick overhead also doesn’t combo. Cammy can go for the hp+hk,p grab instead for a combo reset, though.


#3387

Okay, really getting the hang of v trigger 2 now. Made a video, too!

If Cammy activates v trigger 2 after a c hp hits with its command dash by doing f+hp+hk, Cammy can combo s mp, s hp, special move.

But if Cammy is in v trigger 2 already, after c hp, f+hp+hk, she can only combo into c lp, which is still decent since her target combo combos after c lp.

After the hp+hk,k overhead, 5 frame speed c mp can combo, but not 6 frame s hp, and b+mp is out of range.

After hp+hk,p, the v trigger 2 grab, Cammy can combo s hp, but other normals to try to get bigger damage, like b+mp or s mp, seem out of effective range.

Something worth noting that I didn’t put in the video is how c hp, activate v trigger 2 into hp+hk,k jump kick overhead is a combo, but how c hp into hp+hk,k doesn’t combo if v trigger 2 was activated already when Cammy hit the c hp. So she needs the extra frame advantage from the activation to combo into hp+hk,k overhead.


#3388

So with all of these changes to Cammy + her VT2, is Cammy still considered a top tier character? Or is she now mid tier?


#3389

Did they seriously kill b.mp?
I can’t anti-air fucking neutraljumps anymore with it, who the fuck though it was a good idea to fuck one of the most functional AA buttons in the game?
I want my money back.
leaves the room to play BB


#3390

@forest31 Check out this sheet @WydD made, it should help you out

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DTs_p9cXcAA88B_.jpg


#3391

Cammy started season 2 in top 3 according to a lot of people. She finished in 11th. She’s still mid tier for most players. Only the best of the best will make her look top tier. She’ll still get beat out by BS from other characters that have stronger setups and more damage. This is the year of the grapplers if you ask me.


#3392

Yeah b+mp is terrible now. Not sure what to replace it with. Mk Dp at certain ranges whiffs entirely, Lk DP trades, and st Hk has to be done so much earlier to work where b+mp did before. I’ve been terrified to try and anti air when they go for a cross up. It get’s stuff almost every time for huge damage.


#3393

Yeah like I said, I’m out playing BB, till Falke comes out and if she isn’t fun, I go full anime.

You can take over my guide should that case happen @SunTzu81


#3394

Food for thought: You guys ever thought maybe she wasn’t *that *ridiculous in the first place but reality was almost everyone saying that were possibly gold ranking fellows that think hooligans are mixups and can’t tell whether divekick is plus or minus?
The same guys that - you know - say she got buffed in season 2 and yet again in season 3.


#3395

Thought you were the biggest Cammy loyalist here. For shame!

Still, I’m very disappointed too overall. Without her anti-airs Cammy isn’t the same well-rounded character I loved in Season 2, and while Cammy remains the streamlined and basic character she was since Season 1 everyone else around her gets new tech to toy with. The game is pretty much evolving without her at this point, she was a 900h/900s character that made sense in Season 1 and early Season 2 but less so in late Season 2 and now she seems directed toward mediocrity in Season 3: too little life with too little damage.

Don’t even get me started on her V-Trigger 2. Give up V-Reversal and wait until you’re with 30% left of life to get a shitty dash that barely combos into anything and something that people have described as a poverty version of Demon Flip, but I really think it’s actually a shitty version of the Hooligan she already has.

It’s a shame because Cammy is really the character I want to get good with and be competitive with, but it’s hard to be motivated in playing with the gimped version of the same character I played for an year while I have a Juri secondary that got good buffs and might work well in the new meta of less oki and stronger anti-airs (except for Cammy, who gets weaker anti-airs in the season of strong anti-airs) and an Abigail tertiary which was always a lot of fun to play and supremely dumb to use and random people out.

Sigh

Hopefully once this phase of theory fighter is over it will turns out that Cammy is still pretty much where she was before, but I’m not sure.


#3396

I actually don’t think her VTII is that bad

It’s not the best, but the fact that you have a character like Cammy suddenly able to do a 50/50 mix-up can be potentially panic inducing, even more-so

The timer lasts a while so you don’t necessarily have to use it right away, it’s more things she has that the opponent has to focus on which makes it easier to open them up

And it has more uses than VTI (double meaning there ha ha)

I don’t think it’s something to write off yet

Although her being a character that doesn’t build V-meter well is definitely a concern


#3397

For anyone that is struggling with VTII (non triggered) dash combo timing you can try this trick that helped me. When attempting a delta step from cr hp, hold down forward as you hit cr hp and then tap hp+hk, then slide you stick to down back and do cr lp then hold back as you do b+mp, HK. I’ve found moving sliding the stick along the bottom like this is a good frame kill to time the follow up after the dash. It’s basically the same technique we used to time regular instant air divekicks. I’m sure with more practice we will be able to visually time it better, but it helped when starting out.


#3398

Hello Miria. I agree with everything you said here. It’s a shame what they did to Cammy’s best anti-air with her b.mp. I enjoy catching opponents jumping in with her b.mp, following up with a dash underneath for a mixup. Now, I guess her viable anti-air options would be st.hk and DP. Still, that’s the thing with Cammy. She’s such a straightforward character who’s easy to learn for beginners. It breaks my heart to see other characters improve, while she still remains the same, if not slightly worse

I’ll admit that the HP sacrifice and limited V-Reversal use is a huge risk to take for her VT2. Also, players are shooting themselves in the foot if they just throw her VT2 out there and hope for the best. It’s effectiveness comes from being so aggressively unpredictable that it makes opponents panic on defense. But I’m not ready to give up on it yet. Her VT2 is a lot more fun to use, compared to her VT1. I love it when my opponents guess wrong on whether I’m going to use her overhead or command grab, allowing Cammy to deal a ton of damage. I’ll continue to use her VT2 and try to find other ways to frustrate opponents and make Cammy look like a top tier character again.

Don’t lose faith, Miria. I believe Cammy is still a good character, despite the changes she has. Whether she gets buffed or nerfed, I will forever be loyal to her. Cammy will always and forever be my favorite character in Street Fighter.


#3399

Just more stuff I found/tested.

New Combos:

  1. cr lp (CH), cr mp, cr mp (2nd cr mp connects now so it’s much easier to confirm)
  2. cr. lp, (linked, not quick cancelled/chained) cr. lp, b+mp works now on crouching opponents. Timing the 2nd cr lp will take some practice, but is a good habit to learn to control timings rather than mash.
  3. cr lp, cr lk, st lp (new low hit confirm)
  4. St hk, st lp (can do after a a jump in heavy attack but not sure why you would)
  5. cr lp (blocked) tic throw (not really a combo, but its new)

Anti Air suggestions since b+mp got nerfed:
If character is at deep cross over range do not do B+mp, instead do F+mp as they are crossing over. It’s near the same timing as before but now you press forward to do a lift upper on the other side to anti air them. This is great if you are in the corner but sucks if they are in the corner as they get out. Walking forward and hitting mp as they cross over works whereas holding B+MP loses every single time someone tries to cross up now with the nerf. At farther ranges that do not cross up I’m focusing on st hk as the go to for online play. The lower hurt boxes on st hk helped a lot and that CC is so sweet when it hits. Just realize you have to time it earlier than B+mp, but it shouldn’t be too hard as they are jumping from farther out. The cross ups are the quick ones you have to worry about really. I should note mk dp can be used to beat cross ups and other jump in attacks but requires very strict timing that is dependent on the characters moves and placement related to you so it’s not always consistent especially with any sort of lag. Trying to cross cut dp a teleporting jump is stupid hard. If you do it one frame too early you whiff entirely and eat a full CC punish. If you do it one frame too late you eat a full jump in combo. I don’t know how they can justify making this move CCable on recovery anymore. The risk/reward is so ridiculous at this point. “Oh look I’m getting crush counter hit into stun into KO for attempting to anti air for 80 to 140 damage.”

A Sneaky V-Trigger II use:
Since we can cancel off any normal we can get some dash under mixups off of delta dash. For example if you anti air with st hk into delta dash you can get a quick cross under. Since this is new most people will not be expecting it. You can also going into delta ambush and force a true 50/50 as they will be landing right as the move comes out making it difficult to interrupt. I could even get EX dive kick on hit to pop up into st hk delta dash to cross under so definitely play around with this.

My thoughts on V Trigger II:
I think Cammy players who are more reserved and calculated will prefer v-trigger II. It’s not hit confirmable like v-trigger one is except for the initial activation. After activation uses will have to be based on solid reads and reacting to whiff punish normals with cr hp as there is not enough time to delta dash on reaction. You have to know it will hit beforehand or commit 100% when doing the cr hp to dash otherwise you won’t be + enough to combo after the dash. The only other uses for v trigger will be risking it all on a YOLO gimmick delta ambush hop grab or overhead. After using it for a few hours I feel like I either didn’t need it because I was already winning or I got it too late to even use it all. The fact that it is overly reliant on cr hp or a jump in to land a st hk after activation makes it more difficult to use vs v-trigger ones dive kick option. I see most people using the initial activation as a combo extender and then trying to fish with cr hp or a jump in to get another activation otherwise they will be taking a risk by making a read. So far I’ve only needed to do the initial activation and one other charge to KO (basically same as v trigger 1), which really makes me wonder why they made this a 3 bar v trigger with so many charges. With Cammy’s low life v trigger II comes too late and lasts too long to be fully utilized. I hope they rethink this and make it 2 bars with less charges in the future otherwise she will need a more reliable way to build v meter that doesn’t risk a crush counter. Overall V Trigger II nets you more damage but is harder to pull off. If you are good at confirming/whiff punishing I would recommend it over v-trigger I, but if you relay on stray st hp hits into v trigger activation to confirm I would stick with v trigger I.


#3400

Accuse me one more time of dropping Cammy and I Tager Buster you. Literaly.

I always played other chars besides Cammy, but you have to think about the following. I have 2 accounts, 1 on PS4 sitting at 41k LP and 1 on PC with 4k LP, I must have accumulated around 2-3k hours of SFV already.
And in all this time… I didn’t have a fucking sub.
Rose isn’t in the game, yet.
Juri is a big disappointmeant.
Menat, while looking nice, is Dhalsim 2.0 and with that the polar opposit of what I like.
And I hate Chun-Li for numerous reasons.
Sakura is already a disappointmeant from literaly 1 hour of play.

If Falke is a disappointmeant too, I retire from SF.

But what realy, realy, realy pisses me off right now, is the unwarranted nerf to b.mp.
Capcom: Hey guys in AE we will improve anti-airing!
Cammy: Yay that’s great!
Capcom: Oh forgot we nerf your best AA. We also buffed every Jumping Heavy in the game.
Cammy: Wait what? Didn’t you just say you want to improve anti-airs?
Capcom: st.hk now is an anti-crossup!
Cammy: I have b.mp for this…
Capcom: No you don’t, use st.hk! Play honest!
Cammy: I’m the most honest character in the game…
Capcom: Not according to Eventhubs and Youtube Comments
Cammy: …
Capcom: Enjoy your improved anti-airs!