Cammy General Discussion: To Bee or not to Bee

cammy

#3401

Now, this is the kind of spirit I want to hear.


#3402

Capcom said sfv is an easier game than sf4 and frankly Cammy is the prime example of the sfv accessible character. No longer having to time blockstrings frame perfectly means blockstrings like s mp, c mp, s hp and s lk, c lk, s lp are easy and deadly. Good anti-airs, pokes and damaging combos. But 900 health and stun so yeah, I’d say 2 big mistakes and Cammy lost the round, maybe 3 big mistakes.

I’ll say I’ll be sticking to v trigger 1. If you use Cammy’s v trigger 1 as soon as you get it and use some v skills, Cammy’s v trigger 1 is essentially a 4 bar v trigger, lol! And I don’t think the demonflip mixup in v trigger 2 is particularly awesome. Just earlier today I watched Gamerbee using Cammy in the final round of grand finals at a sfv tournament. He staked his whole tournament on c hp (blocked), v trigger 2 hop. I couldn’t see whether Gamerbee tried the overhead or grab because he got ex DPed by Karin for the loss. Hope it will be on YouTube.

Check out Verloren’s latest stream archive. He likes c lp, grab! Cammy’s c lp actually looks pretty strong!

I’m really liking the new s hk as an anti-air! A good way to use it is as b+hk, eliminating the possibility of an unwanted f+hk knees move. And do it early. I can’t speak to the b+mp changes. I thought they didn’t touch it. Weird. That sucks. b+mp was great vs cornered opponents’ neutral jumps.

u+lk is actually a great anti-air I use often. Hits behind Cammy since j lk is a crossup.

I think the anti-crossup DP motion is hcb,db+k, right? Use with the LK DP of course.

Is s hk a useful meaty? I know Alex’s f+hp is a high but I always see Alexes use f+hp as a meaty.


#3403

is using block strings as a spacing tool to keep your opponent out of their ideal range a good tatic
to implement in your gameplan

no bullshit or troll answers or im just going to ignore u


#3404

Yes. Doing anything to put you at optimal ranges and your opponent at unoptimal ranges is preferred, but doing it via strings can become predictable. I’d say at first it’s good so you can learn the proper distance yourself to do a setup to punish something they like to do, but after learning it don’t rely on it if that makes sense.


#3405

mean there other ways like using pokes or other tools to keep them out of their ideal range
strictly character dependent the block string thing is just on example.


#3406

@SunTzu81 is doing stagger strings good


#3407

At higher levels stagger strings become necessary as most will stop teching the grab and will do a delayed normal instead. A staggered string allows you to counter hit this delayed normal.


#3408

what about the crouching shimmy do u do that ?


#3409

-2 on block and whiffs on crouchers. No, it’s a terrible meaty that would end your offense on block and likely get you hit if your opponent is crouch blocking.

I’m going to try to use stHK more often in the neutral from now on though, just to see how that move really fares in action and out of anti-airs, I think it might have been a little underrated and I want to see if it’s possible to fish for Crush Counters as Cammy in some limited fashion.


#3410

I’ve been testing V trigger II all day in matches and I think this sequence has been the best at getting the most out of it without significant risk. It also gives near 100% corner carry. Basically do any hit that can lead into st mp, st hp delta step, TC, MK SA then dash forward cr hp (meaty), delta step, cr lp and/or TC, lk SA, ex DP (yes they will be in the corner so this hits). This sequence is near safe only losing to mistiming your meaty or EX DP. If the cr hp counter hits you can go into b+mp or cr mp, TC if they are crouching for more damage. If they block the cr hp you get to go into cr lp only risking a jab trade at worse. Even on block this leaves you in their face with a tic throw or shimmy attempt to get a counter hit with another cr hp into delta dash TC, you can also choose to YOLO a delta ambush at any point in your string making them guess high or low. It’s harder than you think to react to it when you do it in between lights and mediums. Worse case scenario you are netting 564 damage from this for one meter if you go into CA instead of EX DP you’ll net 695. You can also use this setup with CA on the first activation combo. st mp, st hp, delta step, TC, MK DP, HK CA dash cr lp (whiffed), cr hp delta step, cr lp and/or TC MK DP for 711-746 damage, but I find that whiffing the cr lp after CA telegraphs your intention making them more likely to block the cr hp as you are so far away. I should also mention you will stun most of the cast off this sequence as well if they had any stun built up so keep that in mind. Cammy will be guaranteed stunned by last hit.

So yeah the v trigger II really only needs two charges to KO basically if you land the second charge. The extra charges are nice but will rarely if ever be utilized. They really should rethink the 3 bar 4 charge setup on this. 2 bar 3 charges (since it requires a reset) would be a perfect change if you ask me.


#3411

I don’t understand why you’re bothering so much to make that crap work, just look at this frame data:

Post-activation dash cancelled from stHP is -1. On hit.
Punishable, on hit, from crMP.
LOL

The command dash is a joke just as much as the overhead jump and works only off crHP, and barely so. You can get heavily scaled combos off the first activation, then go into your setup as that looks like the only way you can use this V-Trigger, making it extremely predictable and more limited compared to V-Trigger 1 (and no, randomly doing the hop is not a way to mix it up, they’ll jab you out. Jabbed out off a 3 bars V-Trigger).

I’m legit starting to think this V-Trigger is as bad as Ken’s and Zeku’s, if not worse. It looks like it does more, but it’s such an awful of combination of “should be a 2 bar V-Trigger, and even then it would be mediocre” and “having a 3 bar V-Trigger sucks for Cammy” that it really makes for one of the most terribly designed moves in the game.

After sacrificing the things Cammy has to sacrifice to get a V-Trigger with 3 bars her overhead should not be punishable but plus to keep on pressuring, just like Akuma’s does all the times, her dashes should almost always be plus on block and highly comboable on hit and they should make her hop harder to anti-air while still being able to connect properly on hit. When a character with a good 3 bars V-Trigger (and probably also better ways to build meter and more life) activates the other character must stops dead in his tracks if he doesn’t want to go from full life to no life, when Cammy activates this useless garbage she only gets more ways to be negative and suffer pressure, more ways to be punished for trying to pull a comeback with a comeback mechanic and just more ways to put yourself in bad 50/50s where you’ll die without getting to use her V-System at all.

This garbage is a joke, and they nerfed the damage of our only real V-Trigger because of it.
What we should be focusing on is not let the people get the impression that this stuff is even remotely functional because some idiot decided to use it and randomed someone out with that crappy fake high/low mixup, the worst thing would be Capcom thinking this stuff is acceptable as it is.


#3412

Yeah. I bet in the next patch they will keep it a 3 bar but buff it in lots of ways.


#3413

Welp, Ken main here. Decided to pick up Cammy as an alt for sim, guile, and rashid unless it’s a bad choice. But on paper she can hang well in those matchups

Let me know if I’m completely off target with this assessment


#3414

No that sounds about right. I’m not sure how Cammy should deal with Sims VTII just yet, but I’m sure with time we’ll figure it out.


#3415

Mira why are you being such a Debbie Downer? Come on man. It’s brand new. There is still a lot to learn and to say it’s bad just on the frame data alone is not the best way to determine if something is good or not. In S1 everyone thought Ken’s run was complete trash due to the frame data. Turns out shit was OP due to stop hit so they had to nerf it for S2.

This isn’t really true though. The command dash works of st mp, st hp, cr hp, and st hk upon activation. The only difference between this and V-trigger I activation is VT1 can combo off cr mp and cr/st mk, but only into DP for less damage. The majority of times VT1 is used is off a st hp or cr hp, so it isn’t that much more predictable or limited than VT1. I agree cr mp probably should be at least +3 on hit though for VTII, but they probably have a reason for this.

I don’t think she sacrificed anything to get a 3 bar trigger. Most changes were universal and her combo potential got increased and more consistent. The only big downsides she got were the b+mp nerf and that cr lp can now whiff after divekicks at certain range, but cr mp always works from that range so it was better to do that anyway. In some cases the shortened range of cr lp actually helps us as she can tic grab off cr lp now, can do a new low check combo, and cr lp to cover both wake up options seems more consistent. She can even do cr lp (CH), cr mp, cr mp and cr lp, cr lp, TC on crouchers now because of the change. Overall she has more potential this season. I mean her b+mp was severely nerfed, but st hk was buffed, jumping mp was also buffed and so was jumping hp/hk. The v-skill being +7 or +9 on counter hit is a good buff too. V skill into counter hit cr HP V trigger is guaranteed corner. I’m not seeing what she sacrificed besides an anti air.

A overhead that is + on block is stupid to begin with, but Akuma’s is not really comparable here. You have to space his demon flip to palm overhead opening yourself up to a crush counter whereas Cammy can cancel her hop from normals making it much harder to crush counter. Akuma’s also don’t lead into a combo on hit. I get why you are comparing it, but to suggest it should be plus on block would be OP.

Her VTII dashes are plus on block after activation from the usual st hp or cr hp normals used to activate. You can still apply pressure just like you could with a raw VT1 activation on block and on hit they are highly comboable actually doing more damage than VT1 off the one charge. I mean if you compare them upon activation VT1 on block gets to apply follow up pressure and then must rely on a jump into VT divekick (semi safe but predictable) or a hit to use the next charge. VTII on block gets to apply follow up pressure as well and then must rely on a jump into cr hp/st hk or a cr hp to either hit or block to use another charge but also gets to try for a 50/50 (that can be unpredictable, but unsafe). The initial activation is pretty comparable between the two, with V Trigger one being slightly better on follow as it’s fast and super plus on block but is more predictable. Also I think we just need to figure out the right times and uses to make the hop harder to interrupt and not whiff. I found against shorter characters or ones with faster walk speed you had to use the right normal at the right time to make the grab or kick work. The thing to realize with VTII is it is harder to use than VT1 but it does pay out more. There is a trade for it’s use.

Also imagine what VTII would look like if everything was +5 at least on block like you are suggesting. It be would look like this: st lk, cr lp, cr mp, cr mp VT dash, st mp, st mp, cr mk, dash, cr lp, b+mp, st mp, st hp (wait its not done yet), dash (hit) B+mp, TC, EX DP or CA as they’d most certainly be in the corner to EX DP with 100 or so white life built up from blocking. You know that feeling you get when Akuma is doing EX fireball 3 times in the row in the corner and you can’t do shit? Yeah that’s how it would feel if Cammy’s VTII was plus on block or hit after dash on nearly everything. It would be the strongest V trigger in the game to date trumping Balrog’s free. I still think it’s pretty nuts that cr hp dash on block is 0. I’m telling you man when people start to learn how to use VTII and pressure with it you are going to see what I’m talking about.

I see what you are saying, but these characters are not the same. Urien can’t smother you like Cammy can. Yes he can activate aegis and force you to guess and land just one hit to put you into another guess most likely KOing you, but Cammy can also pressure mind fuck you as well on activation. Against any 4 frame character a cr hp dash is pressure that the opponent has to hold, putting them at risk to get counter hit, frame trapped or shimmied being put right back into the same situation. The only difference is these hits are more honest as Cammy can’t do a super fast mix up like Laura or a semi fast over head like Urien/Balrog to get a hit into huge damage. She has to make the opponent make a mistake but the same potential is still there. Replace overhead with shimmy, and mixup with frame trap and you can start to see the comparison between the two. Giving Cammy a 3 bar trigger that was like Uriens or Lauras with her toolset would be stupid broken imo.

Come on you are being over dramatic now. They nerfed everyone’s v trigger, not because she got a new one. Honestly I’m sad to see you’ve given up faith so quickly without thoroughly testing it out first. My goal isn’t to prove which is better or worse. I said I’d try it out for 2 months to really get it a feel for it and so far I keep learning more and better uses for it and I’m sharing the knowledge. The potential seems great so far, my only real complaint has been that it takes just a bit too long to get to fully utilize, but a change in playstyle could fix that. It might be like how Ibuki players would play in a way to get into v trigger and then once they did it was an easy KO. My setup above allows for stun situations easily, so maybe playing more conservative to chip away and get chipped into the 3 bars might be a viable option for this v trigger.


#3416

Only on activation though, my thought is about what’s going to happens if things resets to the neutral after activation. None of Cammy’s buttons work with that V-Trigger except crHP, this is going to make her approach painfully predictable for both the one facing Cammy and the one using Cammy. With VT-1 active in the neutral Cammy can just play her normal game, trying to get a confirm into a Spiral Arrow, while having the option to go for the super divekick at any moment she wants, she just has more ways to move around. With VT-2 active it’s fishing-for-crHP: the game, if your opponent is aware you’re getting whiff punished and die. There’s no other way to use it, random hop in the neutral looks slower than Hooligan so that’s not a solution either.

I’m also concerned that even after a VT2 activation combo this V-Trigger is too predictable in its follow up, you basically always want to land a meathy crHP hoping they’ll press buttons to stun them. No one’s gonna press buttons there, they’ll just block, take the throw if necessary and then then it’s back to the neutral where Cammy’s V-Trigger 2 is pretty much already over.

Canceling the hop from crHP on block doesn’t look real either, so that’s one less thing you can do with V-Trigger 2.

I didn’t mean that she got nerfs so that she could get a 3 bar V-Trigger (the nerfs aren’t even that bad, other characters got much, much worse, except they also almost always got something new too), when I said “sacrifice” I mean that she is going to have problems to just activates this crappy V-Trigger in the first place. She has to give up her V-Reversal (which, by the way, I hope nobody will actually be able to punish on block because otherwise that’s really the last nail in the coffin for me), she can’t build V-Meter with V-Skill and Crush Counters so she has to give up 70% of her health before getting V-Trigger 2, a thing I heard too often about it is that Cammy players that used it either won the match and never got to use VT2 or lost before they could use it. Once she’s there she needs something very strong to make the comeback and that pins her opponent in place.

V-Trigger 2 is not that, V-Trigger 2 is a tool that punishes Cammy for selecting it in the first place, it stunts her offence while she has it and then punishes her for using it unless she gets very lucky with confirms or sheer gamble off the hop.

Sounds like how a good 3 bar V-Trigger should be for a character with 900 health and stun and also a bad job at building V-Meter. Once Cammy activates other people’s turn should just be over until she’s done. I make the comparison with Akuma because both Cammy and Akuma are supposed to be, according to their stats, offensive powerhouses each in their own way. Cammy’s V-Trigger 2 should be on par as far as pressure and oppressiveness to Akuma’s 3 bars V-Trigger, and unless they give Cammy some kind of buff to her health or stun anything less than that is an underwhelming V-Trigger.

V-Trigger 2 is more than underwhelming though, I’d be fine if it was just not quite as good as Akuma’s but I honestly think that even if it was 2 bars it still wouldn’t be very good at all. For 3 bars it’s absolutely retarded that Cammy’s overhead is punishable, it should not be punishable even as a 2 bars V-Trigger because that makes the hop unusable, and stuff like being -1 after canceling a dash from stHP on hit is pure horseshit.

For 3 bars the overhead should always be safe so I don’t feel like I got myself in a 50/50 for using my V-Trigger, and the dashes cancelled from stMP, stHP, crMP and crMK on hit should be able to lead to some sort of combos for stMP, stHP and crMP and be plus for crMK, they can be negative on block but crHP should be considerably plus on block and should be able to combo into anything on hit. Cammy must be able to apply stronger than usual pressure and stay relatively safe while V-Trigger is active, otherwise the 3 bars V-Trigger is not doing its job as far as I’m concerned.

The fact that it’s more honest it’s the problem, being honest in this game is a weakness and when you see Cammy being nerfed and Abigail buffed you get what the developers are trying to say: fundamentals are bad and should be nerfed, neutral play is boring. The developers want this game to be defined by robbery and being able to random out and put your opponent in a condition where he has to guess. Cammy’s V-Trigger 2 for 3 bars should be unfair and a robbery tool, that’s how good V-Triggers work in this game and I think that Cammy should get a good V-Trigger for the trouble she has at just getting to the point where she can use it.

Urien doesn’t have to sacrifice as much to get his Aegis as Cammy does, nor does Laura, so I think it’s only fair for Cammy to receive a V-Trigger that’s on par with them.

I’ve really tried to see anything good in this V-Trigger but I just can’t. I just see it as a more restrictive, more unsafe and more costly version of V-Trigger 1, a gimmick that’s more likely to kill you than to kill your opponent, a gimmick you get only when you’re almost dead, and a gimmick that doesn’t lead Cammy’s gameplay anywhere new as the game’s meta move forward without her. Just thinking of using it in a real match makes me feel helpless and that my comeback got even harder to pull than before.

The new V-Trigger is just a bunch of cool animations for training mode and a potential source for funny videos of people getting randomed out by gimmicks they don’t know. I rate it pretty much on par with the Abigail’s EX “infinite” in the corner: there should be like a 13 frame gap between each stomp, so it’s not real, and neither is anything in Cammy’s V-Trigger 2. They’re just troll moves.

I’m a downer because I’m very disappointed with the way the patch ended up being. Other characters can look forward to try out new techs, new real V-Triggers and new gameplans, Cammy instead simply got weaker. Watching Abigail getting mad buffs and Laura being kept strong also gives me the vibe that Capcom just doesn’t like the fact that there’s people sticking to non-robbery based gameplans.

Without a V-Trigger 2 or real new opportunities (crLP being a tick throw doesn’t enthrall me) Cammy has no potential for growth in Season 3. She’s pretty much being kept afloat competitively by how good her basic toolset is, but Cammy is stuck being a character for beginners that’s going to be outpaced more and more by characters that on paper are much weaker than her.

When Bison gets Psycho Crusher crossups, Chun gets guard-breaks loops, Mika and Laura just keep getting new resets and Cammy gets her anti-airs weakened and her divekick combos made unreliable how can I be motivated for Season 3?


#3417

@Phantom_Miria Fair enough. What do you think she needs to experience growth?


#3418

A second V-Trigger that gave her stuff to work with. Most other characters either got a second V-Trigger that opens up new ways to play or a crappy one that doesn’t bother them much because they got buffs somewhere else. And Cammy needed a good alternative V-Trigger more than most because she’s an extremely straightforward character with a very predictable gameplan.

The worst is that I really like the idea of giving Cammy combo extenders off dashes and a high low mixup, and I think that was perfect material for a 3 bar V-Trigger for her. Then they decided to limit her V-Trigger 2 as much as possible, boarded up any original use of it with giant minus signs on it and expected people to gamble their health with something that can easily be anti-aired with a jab, to the point I’m feeling punished just for selecting it.

Season 3 will be an year of doing the same thing slightly worse than before while getting hit by all kinds of new shit.


#3419

@SunTzu81

So, the frame data on the dash is wrong? What are the right numbers then?

Seeing that stuff basically made me give up entirely on the V-Trigger, if the dash is +2 after stHP on hit it makes at least some sense. I still think she should get a combo off it, that the dash is too limited and that you’re basically stuck fishing with crHP the whole time with it, having to reach for a counter to get combos off stHP is not enough to make the V-Trigger worth the cost.

If they made the overhead safe but still negative, stHPxxdash +3 on hit so you can use the dash as an actual combo extender and crHP being at least +5 on hit to combo into stMP then the V-Trigger would finally be worth the 3 bars. It would give Cammy the choice between doing a long combo that spends her entire V-Meter for quick guaranteed damage but that suffers harshly from scaling (crHPxxVTC2 Dash, crHPxxDash, stMP, stHPxxdash, crLP, bMPxxstHK, any ender; finally a flashy combo for Cammy, with her dash acting as a semi-FADC like some people were speculating before) or go for resets either by dropping the combo or use the hop mid combo in a way that could actually surprise her opponent, and if things resets in the neutral the opponent has to look out for both crHP’s range and also stHP giving him something that resembles the threat of the buffed divekick in VT-1.

It’s a shame that they decided to make her dash so limited, just two of my suggestions would make it very viable and an actual alternative to VT-1


#3420

@Phantom_Miria

So with all of these changes (including her b.mp nerf and controversial VT2), is it safe to say that Cammy is officially out of the top tier category?