Cammy General Discussion: To Bee or not to Bee

cammy

#3421

@Phantom_Miria Here you go. I’m assuming whoever made that chart, might have done it before the official release and things were changed or they cancelled the VT too late.

ON HIT: 1st/2nd CH1/CH2 ON BLOCK: 1st/2nd
st lp -2/-8 -1/-7 -4/-10
st mp +4/-2 +6/0 0/-6
st hp +5/+2 +7/+4 +1/-2
st lk -4/-10 -2/-9 -5/-11
st mk -2/-8 0/-6 -6/-12
st hk +8/0 +24/+20 +2/-2
cr lp -2/-8 0/-6 -4/-10
cr mp +2/-3 +4/-1 -2/-7
cr hp +9/+3 +11/+5 +6/0
cr lk -3/-9 -1/-7 -5/-11
cr mk -1/-7 +1/-5 -4/-10
cr hk +23/? ?/? -3/-10


#3422

Putting the disappointment over V-Trigger 2 aside?

In my personal opinion, which is only worth what is worth, Cammy was top 5 material only in Season 1, then in Season 2 she was definitely in Top 10 but it was hard to find a spot for her in Top 5 because of how many good characters there were around her level.

She only got nerfs in Season 3, maybe at the highest level the removal of counterhit pushback is going to make her more consistent while stuff like the bMP nerf is going to matter less, but I fear that top players will learn how to bait and punish Cammy’s V-Reversal and that the nerf to divekicks combos might impact high level play too. She might keep her Top 10 position depending on how other characters develop, Cammy didn’t got any better and she only got a bit worse, but many other characters around her have changed.

That’s just my crappy opinion though, I don’t trust it myself.

Thanks a lot!
I didn’t want to spread misinformation in that thread on reddit, but I found that chart being posted in more than one place and I thought it was reliable.

The real frame data looks a lot better, but it’s still pretty bad in my opinion. Dash from stMP -2 on hit is… ugh.
I still think that if they made dash from stHP +3 on hit and dash from crHP+5 the V-Trigger would be worth its cost, possibly even with the overhead staying unsafe. This V-Trigger could make for some really cool combos and resets if only it wasn’t so limited.


#3423

This is what it does though, granted it needs counter hit to do certain follows up, otherwise it would be able to go forever which would be broken. You really need to lab man. Also what overhead in this game that leads into a combo is not punishable? Akuma’s is one hit that leads to a knockdown and it’s slower than Cammy’s.


#3424

It wouldn’t go on forever: after activation you would be able to combo crHP dash stMP, stHP dash crLP, TC and then Cammy has consumed all of her meter, or she could fish with stHP in the neutral to get a combo into crLP, TC, or she could interrupt her combo at any moment to try a reset. Having to get a counter to combo off stHP is too limited, if I can hit them and cancel I should be able to get a combo with a 3 bar V-Trigger. The whole combo shouldn’t even do that much damage, how is it even remotely broken in this game?
If she got this kind of combo potential while in V-Trigger 2 the overhead might even stay punishable, but to have to hope on lucky counters to get any combo started and a shitty version of Hooligan that’s never a real mixup except on activation is just pathetic.

And I actually started labbing that thing and I wasn’t too surprised of what I found: post-activation the hop can get interrupted by anything, it can be jabbed out whether you canceled from a hit or a block. It’s the same of me randomly canceling Hooligans off blocked normals, it’s not a real mixup.
Think of this for a second, Cammy’s 3 bars V-Trigger can just be jabbed out. You can’t jab Akuma’s out of his V-Trigger air-fireballs, you can’t jab to stop Laura’s mixups during her V-Trigger, you can’t jab to stop Abigail who’s charging at you with his V-Trigger 2, but you can jab out Cammy’s.

V-Trigger 2 is only kinda decent on activation, after activation it either forces Cammy to fake mixups or predictable setups, and if things go back in the neutral she might as well waste the dashes because she can’t do anything with them. At this point I’m convinced this is one of the worst V-Trigger in the game, it really has no redeeming qualities outside of being good to catch unprepared people and newbies out.


#3425

@Phantom_Miria You can actually do something close to what you are suggesting (see below), but the combo you just suggested would be highly scaled. You are talking about a 3 bar v-trigger that would net you 370 or less damage (its an 8 hit combo) and be done. That would be ABSOLUTELY terrible for a 3 bar trigger. VT1 currently nets you 306 damage using the whole thing. VTII on one activation off of st hp nets you 256 damage. If you add in meter (which you can’t off VT1 activation) you can do 290 damage and this is off of a st hp. If you do it on a second activation of cr hp you can do 370 damage for one meter. This is more than VT1’s full damage combined and it can be easily done off of a meaty setup, jump in, or frame trap. The closest we have to what you suggest is this combo: st mp (CH), cr hp, vtdash, cr hp, vt dash, cr lp TC xx lk SA, EX DP and it only does 280 damage, but why would you waste the charges for literally 12 damage more than just doing TC into HK DP.

It sounds like you are just so used to hitting v trigger and then reacting with a spiral arrow and then finishing it up with either a CA or EX dp when you can. You want that one hit and easy follow up, but that’s not where Cammy’s strength’s are. Yes it’s easy to do her VT1 combos but what makes Cammy a strong character in this game is her fast normals and what she can get from them. It’s those fast buttons that no one can react too. When Cammy is in close with those fast normals people have to take risks and make guesses. It’s hard to see when a shimmy or microstep to continue pressure is coming in between those fast lights. VTII just gave her multiple additional “ins” on each confirm to do another setup with her pressure mixups. Normally you’d have to rely on a wake up meaty (much easier for the opponent to react too with a reversal or screw up with a back recovery) or a properly spaced divekick or other risky move to get back in. When you add in the fact she can also mix in 50/50 situations in these strings she’s going to be terrifying once people get a hang of it.

Shit you know how they run away from VT1s divekick? Well what do you think they will do when they can’t run away from VTII pressure? Think about this scenario.

st mp, st hp, v trigger dash, TC xx MK Spiral arrow, knockdown, normal dash (meaty, they can’t hit anything here but reversal), v trigger dash, TC xx lk spiral arrow, ex dp (stunned and in corner.)

But what if they reversal? Well if they want to take that risk they will certainly be KO’d. In SFV if you wake up reversal and you are wrong you basically bet the entire round on one reversal. In VTII cammy’s CC sthk, Hp+hk, P (grab), st hp, hk DPxx CA can do 579 damage.

So what if they just block the meaty? Well this is where the fear comes in. So they block the cr hp meaty follow up and you VT dash. You are both at zero. They have to time their jab to TRADE at best and that’s only if they have a 3 frame jab. If they mistime it they get counter hit into another combo and all that happens to you is a jab (no counter hit given). If they choose to just block they have to contend with a cr lp that leads into other lights, tic grabs, TC, shimmies, frame traps, etc basically a number of options that can then lead into another follow up that puts them in an even worse position upon hit of st mp or cr hp then they were when they blocked at 0. They won’t want to block, but they will be terrified to hit a button too. It’s that same fear Laura puts into you on v-trigger when she’s dashing everywhere.

Even in worse case scenarios where they just block everything, by the time you’re initial activation combo is done they are most likely going to be in the corner, this means even grabs are deadly as you get oki off of them. Even if they take the grab, and you follow up with a meaty st mp string and back out. They are sitting in the corner and you have full control. They have to get out and any jump, walk out attempt, or whiffed button leads right back to them being in the same shitty situation. Dude it’s crazy what she can do even on block. While you have them cornered you can pressure with st mp and st hp pressure and mix in a v trigger cancel at random to get back in. Even though they are negative it’s hard to see it coming and react in time as most people are used to the pauses of your blocked moves. Since the V trigger dash lets you cancel into it from normals this makes it tricky to react to. Add in shimmies too and its really tough to want to hit a normal her to stop them as it’s so easy to get caught.


#3426

@SunTzu81

The damage for that combo would be bad, yes. You’d still be incentivized to always go for a reset unless you’re very close to killing, and the necessity for a reset would actually give the hop some use since it’s pretty much Hooligan-tier fake after activation right now. The hop might be able to take people by surprise if they have to guess between Cammy just continuing her combo, finishing it early into Oki or take a big risk with high reward with the hop.

What I want this V-Trigger to do is to reward hit-confirming and make you able to extend combos off a single stray stHP without the counter limitation, it’s still harder to pull off than V-Trigger 1 stuff where you’re basically trying to hit confirm Spiral Arrow like usual and then get easy juggles after it, and the reason I want this is because in that way V-Trigger 2 would actually encourage Cammy players to pressure and use their quick buttons, V-Trigger 2 right now forces you to not use your fast normals.
V-Trigger 2 demands that you use crHP to get anything consistently with the dash, which means that you can’t get in while V-Trigger 2 is active if you don’t want to waste it, Cammy’s fast buttons like like stMP and stHP leads to nothing when canceled with the dash and crHP is too slow and risky to do up close. So you have to give up space to get in range to safely use crHP and hope you hit something, I can totally see myself walking back in the corner and people getting pressure on me because of how terrible this V-Trigger is at helping my gameplan.

And all of VT-2 pressure is fake, there’s no reason to be afraid of it once you know it. The only time someone should be afraid of it is if he’s a 4 frame character with little health left that risks dying off a crLP tick throw. Any character with a 3 framer just has to stand in crHP max range and wait for the inevitable dash to come in, then mash jab and trade denying Cammy’s pressure and wasting half of her V-Meter. Characters with 4 frame can stay in and out of crHP range to whiff punish her or just block and take the throw if they must, if they have health they have nothing to be afraid of. Hoping that people won’t be ready to contest with jab after a telegraphed dash is akin to say that this V-Trigger stops working at Super Platinum, much like random Hooligans stops working at Super Silver.
And there’s no 50/50 mixup you can do after having activated, the hop gets beaten by anything, it’s worse than the Hooligan.

To me it seems that you’re betting entirely on keeping the momentum going after successfully hitting and activating V-Trigger 2, to me this tells me nothing about V-Trigger 2’s merits but merely about the merits of Cammy’s regular pressure, which V-Trigger 2 disincentivize by making so that the only way to use the Dash is from crHP which is a poke you generally want to use from far.
It can put characters with 4 frame normals in a bad spot if the activation leads them in the corner, but then again they can just block forever and take the throw if necessary, Cammy’s V-Trigger will have run out doing minimal damage and they still likely have the life lead.

If VT-2 is only good for its initial activation then to me that means it’s as good F.A.N.G’s V-Trigger 1, and that’s one of the worst V-Triggers in the game. After activation Cammy’s V-Trigger 2 simply gets beaten by jabs: the hop always get jabbed no matter from where and how you cancel it so you should never use it on opponents that you take any seriously, the dash is always negative on block except crHP which will trade with characters with 3 frame jabs, on hit you don’t get anything except from crHP which is not a button Cammy wants to be using if she’s trying to keep pressuring.

This whole V-Trigger is a gimmick, either back off to use crHP in the most predictable way possible or do dumb nonsense like pressing buttons after dashing in and being -2 hoping your opponent is a moron that doesn’t know how her VT-2 works. This V-Trigger legitimately tries to make you develop bad habits.
The dash should be much more plus on hit and block, or the high-low 50/50 should always be a guaranteed 50/50 for this V-Trigger to be worth it (even with 2 bars it’d be worse than VT-1, let’s be real), and I’d rather have the first because forcing 50/50s is just ugly.


#3427

This is exactly what it does now. You can extend for 280 damage like I explained earlier or go for a reset for way more damage.

Did you watch my video about using st hp? It does it exactly this off a stray hit. First activation is a guaranteed combo extender, 2nd use is a guaranteed combo on counter hit or guaranteed follow up pressure on hit. The follow up from the dash ENCOURAGES pressure with quick buttons.

It sounds like you want her dash to be plus on block like VT divekick expect with less risk as you wouldn’t even have to jump to get in. That doesn’t seem OP to you? A standard blockstring that could end with a dash into another full blockstring, and then into yet another full Blocksting that could at any point be broken up with a 50/50 hop? Have you seen the other 3 v bar triggers in the game? None can pressure like this indefinitely. They all have resets, granted they are trickier with hard to block situations, but they are still resets.


#3428

No, it doesn’t. StHP requires the Dash Activation or a counter to combo into anything, otherwise you just get more pressure being +2 after a hit, which for a 3 bar V-Trigger on a 900 health character with hard-to-get-Crush-Counters and situational V-Skill is garbage. For the cost I should get a combo there simply on regular hit, I can’t justify wasting V-Meter just for the chance of gaining pressure at the risk of getting pressured if they block. I might as well just forget I have a V-Trigger active and play normally trying to confirm a Spiral Arrow.

Since stHP can’t combo naturally and exposes me to the risk of losing momentum I must seek a better normal to try and not waste my V-Trigger, and I only have crHP able to do the job, barely so. So goodbye fast Cammy normals, V-Trigger 2 just made you useless.

CrHP should definitely be plus on block after a dash, otherwise the V-Trigger is just unable to provide real pressure after activation. StHP can be 0 on block and in that way you might actually be able to surprise people with 3 frame moves, then if a Cammy wants to waste her entire V-Trigger by making someone block crHP, go into a blockstring that ends with stHP and still waste the dash even if she hasn’t confirmed anything to risk trading with a 3 frame jab that’s on her, to me it sounds like a total waste. She can only use two dashes after activation, it’s hardly an infinite blockstring, they can always V-Reversal if they feel like and Bison does this on the regular anyway.

And yes, crHPxxDash would become similar to her divekick in VT-1, because VT-1 is just a 2 bars V-Trigger and her 3 bars V-Trigger should be more powerful. Does it sound OP? Yes, I’m thinking of a good V-Trigger here. Bison with a command grab that later leads into an actual combo extender is OP and so is Chun with guard breaks, and that’s the stuff Cammy’s 3 bars V-Trigger must compete with, and it should take her stats and difficulty to build V-Meter in consideration too. It’s not a condition that’s supposed to be fair.

And she doesn’t get 50/50 with the hop. I’ve yet to see an instance post-activation where the hop can lead to a 50/50 without being interrupted by by a jab or even heavier buttons. That “50/50” is as real as Hooligan, mash jab as soon as you see her flying in the air and you’ll beat her. Half of her V-Trigger 2 becomes unusable after activation.


#3429

@Phantom_Miria & @SunTzu81

You both bring up valid arguments in regards to Cammy’s VT2. I was watching some videos on Youtube of top players using Cammy’s V-Trigger 2, trying to get an grasp on how/when to use it, as well as how other players counter it.

Below (@ 7:30) we see Cobelcog pulling off some crazy comebacks against top tier characters, using Cammy’s 2nd V-Trigger to suffocate opponents.

On the other side, here’s Kazunoko getting stuffed by a high ranked Zeku player.

As you can see, if the opponent is expecting it, a mere light normal can easily stuff Cammy’s jump-in. Also, it was all over when her overhead kick was blocked. But with that being said, we cannot deny how much pressure opponents must deal with when Cammy gets going with this VT2. If she can keep others on their heels and make the right reads, then Cammy will not scare the shit out of her opponents with her aggressive offense, but also pull off some breathtaking comebacks.


#3430

@Happy_Birthday_Rika Cobelcog shows exactly what I’ve been saying about conditioning the opponent and then mixing it up so you can do hop attacks more safely. The guile player was expecting the DP there but instead he went with hop so he wasn’t expecting it and got caught. In the second game he uses corner carry and follow up pressure to force tic grab situations that the Rashid player was too scared to tech for fear of a shimmy. This is only a small fraction of what is possible with it too.

The kaz video is literally from day one. Kaz has almost zero practice with it before these matches and is why you see him just spamming the hop attack randomly. This makes for a very weak argument. It’s like showing a Cammy in bronze that gets blown up for spamming random spiral arrows and then saying the move sucks. At 5:00 he goes from a blocked cr hp FREEZE to hop giving the opponent 60 frames to respond. Of course he is going to hit him out of that just like he would punish a bad jump in. No one should or will ever do that once they learn how to use VTII. You would only go into dash from a blocked cr hp. Cr hp into hop should only come from a hit from a jump attack, whiff punish or a counter hit from st mp or v skill if you want it to connect. Even in Cobelcog’s video Guile still could have blocked high but he made an educated guess as I’m sure he did hp into DP multiple times before that (I’m pretty sure this was from there first to 5 set) and he knows Guile players want to hold down back charge on wake up so the overhead was a pretty easy assumption.


#3431

That’s the thing: the reset on Guile worked because Cobelcog intentionally dropped his combo and went for the hop in a moment it was hard to react or expect. In any other moment, even on activation, the hop is completely useless.

If you hit with crHP and activate into hop you go for overhead because it’s a combo, there’s no 50/50 because you’re just comboing there and no one would stand block in that situation exactly to deny Cammy the reset into throw. If you activate into hop with a blocked crHP you can get stuffed by medium DPs and invincible reversals (which is unquestionably dumb) and, once again, the 50/50 is denied on those characters. Maybe it works on characters without a DP and an invincible reversal but I’m not sure. If you do hop after activation then it’s never real, always interruptable, no 50/50s allowed again.
And then consider that, even if there was a way to use the hop to force 50/50s, Cammy still has a good chance of guessing wrong and die due to the punishment.

So, by using her extremely expensive V-Trigger 2, Cammy gets a high risk mixup option that she can’t use to mixup people with because the hop is too slow and can get stuffed by anything. Half of her V-Trigger is functionally useless. If her dashes gave her anything to work with combo-wise the risky resets into the hop might start to make sense because you could do more of that random combo drops into hop, but the dashes give her no pressure and barely any combo, so the two moves synergize awfully.

I frankly think it’s time we stop trying to see the merits in a V-Trigger that loses to jabs and we admit that, if Delta Advance was exactly like it is now but with 2 bars required for activation, then there would still be many more 2 bars V-Triggers better than it, and Cammy’s VT-1 would still be one of them. V-Trigger 2 needs to be buffed, in some way or another, so that it can properly compares with the other 3 bars V-Triggers that are in the game.

Juri’s Feng Shui Engine wasn’t that good back when it had 3 bars, and I think it was still more useful for her than Cammy’s V-Trigger 2.


#3432

On another topic, I’m sure most of us has seen Japan’s week 1 tier list for the Street Fighter characters. Arcade Edition has been out for a whole week now, so players are starting to form their own lists on how strong the characters are with the changes and 2nd V-Triggers.

Here is the tier list according to top Japanese players, Fuudo, Bonchan & Haitani.

S: Rashid, Abigail, Birdie, Guile, Akuma, Cammy

A: Kolin, Urien, R.Mika, Necalli, Laura, Menat, M. Bison, Zangief, Karin, Ibuki, Balrog, Ed

B: Nash, Chun-li, F.A.N.G, Dhalsim, Sakura, Ryu, Ken

C: Juri, Zeku, Alex, Vega

As you can see, even top professional players still put Cammy in the S tier category, even with the drastic changes she’s had.

Now I know tier lists are very subjective; so there is no right or wrong answer to where a character should fall. We can make arguments on how Cammy is too high, or how others are too high or too low, etc. But what I understand is that, regardless of the nerfs to Cammy, she’s still considered a strong character.

Perhaps her fast normals, her walks speed, her cr.lp > tick throw, etc, are what’s keeping her so high. Like I said, this is all opinion. But I like to know is there something about Cammy that’s keeping her in that category? I know the nerfs to her b.mp, and the pushback on her normals have hurt her a bit. Still, she’s still in the top tier conversation.

Thoughts?


#3433

S-Tier, she’s B-Tier at best this Season.


#3434

Why would you use the hop on block? Where is this mixup that you are talking about?

vt1 is solid and just works for novice to advanced players. Vt2 seems like it requires a deeper understanding of the state of the game and your opponent for you to exploit it. Which one is better? I do not know. But it is short sighted, to just stop trying to see the merits of it without exploring it for atleast a month in training room and testing your findings against other players/characters.


#3435

Regarding VT2: I absolutely hate doing stuff that we know is not legit but we have to remind ourselves SFV is the game where you can see dumb shit like Ken’s run cancel and Ibuki’s mk dash being successful even in high level.

I’m not saying it’s worth ditching VT1 (especially since Cammy is one fucking glass cannon something), it’s just that I find it way too easy to get carried away looking at frame-data and forgetting SFV essentially is about fake shit.

I know I certainly had my share of successful hooligan “mixups” and v-skill throw baits.


#3436

Does anyone here want to share VTII tech? I have yet to see someone even remotely show it’s potential yet.


#3437

It’s a hooligan with an overhead what do you want lol


#3438

Anyone watching EVO Japan? It was awesome to see a lot of great players come together for some Street Fighter 5: Arcade Edition competition. I also got see some of the world’s best Cammy players like Kazunoko, NL & Verloren among others

But what fascinates me is how many Cammy players are among the top 128. Besides a few familar names such as Alex Myers and Xiao Hai, there are a few I’ve never heard of before. There’s Powell, who has sent EVO champion, Tokido, into losers bracket. And then there’s UD, who sent Haitani into losers bracket. As of right now, we have a total of 8 Cammy players left in the tournaments; 7 of them are in winners bracket.

And that’s when I’ve been thinking. Perhaps this is a preview of how good Cammy is or how good she is going to be this season in AE. I know some players have slept on Cammy because of the nerfs she had received. However, it doesn’t appear to be bothering the other tournament players as they are having success with Cammy.

Earlier, a few top Japanese players made their own Tier lists and have put Cammy in the S Tier or A+ Tier. Even Infiltration and Alex Myers agree that Cammy is going to be just as strong in AE. Maybe they are right. I believe the success we are seeing in EVO Japan with the Cammy players are a good testament of how strong Cammy really is, despite the changes she has.

Am I overthinking this and giving Cammy players too much credit? Or is there something that makes Cammy successful? She did have a few nerfs to her b.mp and pushback on some normals. Still, there are players that are making her look like a top tier character. One of theme even sent Tokido to losers bracket.


#3439

I’ll watch the replays on youtube. I might watch some live. I usually fast forward and only watch Cammy or my favorite players like Haitani and Poongko.

This great video was in my recommended on youtube. Cammy would’ve stunned and won round 1 with her season 2 forward throw! Seeing a Master Cammy do a normal into regular drill as his 3 bar v trigger 2 is almost empty was equally hysterical. There was a jump in with full meter into s hp, drill when Cammy had full meter. I would’ve definitely done DP, super.


#3440

There were actually lots of Cammys at evo Japan but none got as far as NL who eliminated Kazunoko. Almost all using V Trigger 1 which I agree with. It’s ok, Cammy still has V Trigger 1 and it lasts longer. Remember how great sf4 Fei Long was and how awful his ultra 2 was?