Discussion on the Cammy vs Birdie match-up goes here.
I find this matchup rather difficult. Watching coblecog helped a lot though. Anybody else?
It is really rough. Remember just remember that neutral jump blows up Revenger, you have a million frames to punish a blocked chain, try to keep him out with st.MK, and L/M/EX Bullhead is all punishable with cr.MK. You have to punish H Bullhead with cr.MP.
I find the problem with your pokes in this match is that it’s roulette. St. HP and cr. HP are strong vs certain pokes, and cr. MP and st. MK are better versus others. Against other high damaging characters, Cammy has a clear advantage in the neutral game. Insert Birdie’s neutral and it’s tough.
You kinda have to see the the habits of the Birdie player.
When you have Birdie cornered, there’s no optimal spacing. It comes down to the habits of the player and reads.
Every spot on the screen is a guessing game for Cammy. That’s the biggest issue. She can’t shimmy for free because Birdie’s throw range is great and his EX Command Grab is a threat. Some spacings leave her suspectible to dash-ups and armor moves, others leave her open to EX Dolphin Dive and the like. Add in his overhead / low guessing game so you can’t reliably down back.
And that’s before we get to the health/stun/damage issue. Birdie has more life, more stun and causes more damage. Cammy can lose the game off one mistake and has to take high risk, low reward steps to get the life lead back. Birdie can play with medium risk, high reward option. Your EX Dive Kick loses a lot once Birdie has meter to armor cancel your dive kick (for those Cammy players who believe EX Dive Kick is free, and for those that over use it).
It’s just a bad match. There’s no real way around it. Cammy’s highest damaging combo would put Birdie at 50% life. Just one of Birdie’s higher damaging combos would put Cammy at less than 30%. I think his highest damaging combo would leave her at 20%.
I mean, 1 command grab is almost a 3rd of Cammy’s life bar. Birdie has access to a ton of 400-600 damage combos. Birdie can AA for 600+ damage. I don’t think there’s one combo Birdie has that is less than 300 stun.
The idea of Bee vs Bull is very accurate here.
I feel like this is in Cammy favor by a longshot. Play him as you would zangief, use sMK alot but be weary of his command grab and armour jump neutral HK or HP to punish.
Armour jump, what?
He has an armour move, i just neutral jump punish that.
Sorry, but I couldn’t disagree with you more. You have to play vs Zangief and Birdie VERY differently. You’re going to get bodied if you approach a good Birdie the same way.
Against Zangief, you can keep him out with your normals, AA his jump-ins, and overall be patient.
Against Birdie, his normals outrange you. Your damage output is a joke compared to Birdie, You’re forced to take risks vs him. If you make a single mistake, say goodbye to a quarter or more of your life.
There are other reasons that I can’t remember off the top of my head, but this match-up something around 6-4 Birdie’s favor IMO. 5.5-4.5 Birdie, at best.
Here’s LPN vs Kaz at NCR 2016, for example:
Your right, I played good birdies won alot lost more. But yes I do see your point. I was actually coming back to this thread to revoke what I said I rethought the MU and came to the same conclusionsize as yourself. Cammy a high dmg output character and the dmg she gets on Birdie is mediocre at best. It’s very annoying how they removed cammys airthrow in a game whereviews airthrows are actually good now, and reduced her life by 50.
You’re going to get bodied by Birdie if your name is Kazunoko, he doesn’t play Cammy, he still plays Yun, I saw a Replay of him playing against Nuki and he got bodied,because he couldn’t stop doing wakeup DP and got punished everytime, this guy is stuck in IV and will forever. Worst example to pick by far.
The MU is actualy in Cammys favour 6-4 and 5-5 as soon Birdie gets V-Trigger.
The point is, it’s a very counterpoke heavy MU and you have to abuse your walkspeed to make Birdie whiff a lot.
It’s similar like Chun in SFIV, if we look at the neutral, it was Cammys most effective tactic to stay at max range and whiffpunish everything, by walking back and forward at max range.
Finding the right way to play is important, I had some time experiementing and I treat that MU like Chun in IV and it’s a realy good pay-off.
This MU has to be played very different from most others, but it is actualy in her favour.
post videos pls
@Cipher Is there a reason you feel so strongly about Kazunoko? I understand we have opinions but it’s apparent you feel like he’s a terrible cammy. Which is hard to see when he does so well at already stacked tournaments with well known players. Other than poongko, cobelcog (who isn’t proven in a major tournament just to be clear) or maybe 801 strider, who has a better cammy?
And as far as the birdie mu being 6-4 in her favor…please post a video.
I agree Kaz is playing the wrong character but I do feel hes going way too hard on him
No offense but Cipher feels so strongly about Cammy being the best character in the game period and no bad matchups whatsoever. I won’t be impressed at all if he feels all tournament level Cammy mains picked the wrong character. I’m still waiting for a video of a high level Cammy vs Birdie match where it feels like Cammy has the advantage.
But yeah, I also have no clue on this matchup. I feel like it’s really common for me to dominate and have him cornered 95% of the time only to lose when he touches me. Whenever I win it’s because I picked the right option on his wake up multiple times.
Carups you feel like everything sucks on her and tend to be the first one who claims that everything is bad.
To repeat the list:
- Throws suck
- Divekick suck
- No overhead
- Downback and you’re helpless
There is a little difference between you and me, I don’t bitch first and then start to jump on a train.
I sit most of the time watching replays, testing stuff and trying to find good players to actualy test this stuff on my own. I develope strategies, by testing different things under different situations while beeing in a match.
And treating Birdie like I treatet Chun in IV, is realy realy effective.
Try it by yourself, unless in your opinion the MU was bad,because you couldn’t use the same setup against her like everybody else because EX SBK.
And for the last time, I suck in making videos!
I can give you everything on paper, thats what I can,since I write every piece of crap I discover down.
And leave me alone with Kazunoko, this guy is absolutly learn-resistant, he played a autopilot for years and had succes with it, he will not change his playstyle.
Poongko is able to do it, he does it slowly and effective.
K-Brad is slow as f*** when it comes to adjust to changes, but he does.
Kazunoko just want to get nuts the whole time, Mika or Rashid are made for him, not Cammy. Everytime someone will prove something with Kazunoko in it, I will straight up leave it as "bad example. and not worth mentoiing.
Cipher, every higher level Cammy, pro or not, thinks Cammy loses to Birdie. Even quality Birdie players like MrKingFunk say the match is awful for Cammy.
You are playing off theory IMO. Show me a single high level set with Cammy beating Birdie clean. You aren’t even saying it’s even, you’re calling it 6-4 Cammy. Nothing suggests that.
What you’re saying about Cammy winning on walk speed is theory. I need you to show me.
just upload a match video using the ps4 share feature. no need for skill.
I think Cipher is simply really biased in favor of Cammy so hes not looking at things objectively. Hes not the only person who does this. Some people just straight up get attached to their character.
This is it. 100%. I feel like it’s theory-based post.
This isn’t meant to turn into a bash session but the way you word things especially in regards to that mu deserves some kind of video backing it up. It really doesn’t take much to provide a video. Record it using your phone. We’re not asking for a 1080P HD video uploaded to YouTube but something adequate to represent what you saying.
What the hell do you want?
Mu’s are paper only, a good player can even make bad Matches not looking bad by experience alone.
Or has noone seen the Phenom vs Dieminion Match, Bison-Guile is one of the worst MU’s in IV and Phenome.
Everyone will bitch about this MU until someone say it’s not bad. It’s always like this.
Now you say it sucks, 2 weeks later you will say it’s good, maybe I will say then it sucks, who knows.
And I stay with my opinion, I never cared what ever people think about my opinion and I will not start with it now.
When you land or have them block an ex dive kick you have to abuse her mix-up game after doing a crouch jab. You can either shimmy, frame trap, or grab depending on how they play. I always do tick grabs first to see their habit plus it’ll make them want to tech grabs if you keep abusing it so you can either shimmy or frame trap for more damage later. The challenging part is getting close enough to land the jab. You can also abuse the same set-up if you get them to the corner after landing a bnb spiral arrow combo or throw from knockdown. You have to force the Birdie to play a rock/paper/scissor game to come out on top of the match-up.
You can also do jab to vskill to beat tick grabs or do a free mix-up since his body is so big. They can delay grab or mash buttons to beat this. Its a winnable match-up but you have to play the player. I feel like it’s almost the same thing for every cammy match-up.