Discussion on the Cammy vs Chun-Li match-up goes here.
So far when i play this matchup I try to poke with Cannon drill, once i close distance try for frame trap setups. In my experience I don’t think Cammy can go toe to toe footsies with Chun, tried it while i was in lobbies with my buddies one who plays Chun and just got shutdown. Looking for a more in depth breakdown if folks have more feedback.
bmp beats iall
I see what Vesper means he said you can down-back hard against Cammy
you will def be throwing or fishing for white health a lot as cammy
Ran my first real few sets with a Chun player last night.
Her buttons are much better than Cammy’s and you can’t really approach Chun from the air. That makes it a very challenging match.
Your meaty game needs to be really good here or she is going to wake-up jab and cr. LK and all of that good stuff.
Using shimmy on Chun is more player based because Chun’s like to stick out cr. MK xx Fireball (however, it’s not a true string).
Not sure if Chun necessarily beats Cammy, but the sets definitely made me realize I need to sit in the lab for a while and look at it. I have a tendency to not lab things until they give me trouble
Thoughts on the Chun match-up?
It really does feel like you have to be frame perfect on your meatys against her. I’ll have 5 matches of perfect meaty setups and then I play a chun and get hit by the cr lk on wake up and I’m thinking how the F? It might just be her visual wake up throwing me off, but I try to time it based on my movement not hers.
I like to use far st hp and st mk buffered pokes against her, if she sweeps to reach you your st hp or SA will punish to get you in. They love to push buttons all the time so I tend to use st. mp to cr. mp on block mainly to catch the button mash. If they jump you have to be ready to st jab or b+mp to beat the Tk legs. Depending upon how good the Chun’s reactions are you can do (on her block) st. mp. cr. mp jump to lk cs to try and catch them hitting st lk late for a counter hit into knockdown.
Oops, nvm. Mods that don’t exist, if you see this you can delete it.
Ah yeah, I dunno why I didn’t think of that. That’ll cover most of her button presses after that string. Thanks SunTzu
I played a lot of chun’s last night from gold to platinum. Some of those air lightning legs are unreactable if they are doing them perfect, you basically have to anticipate it, but it ended up trading a lot in Chun’s favor with the st mp or st jab as they started to vary the distance, much like we do with our dive kicks. It definitely feels like we can utilize our dive kick the same way she does air lightning legs. A crouching lk DP seemed to work better on reaction if I stay crouching, but was sometimes hard to react too.
I also wouldn’t rely on HK DP through their mk to fireball. You can do it, but timing is tough and it’s like trying to do a one hit confirm if you don’t see it coming. The risk reward just doesn’t seem to be there as a punish, but if they are spamming that string you can go for it to try and get them off of you. The EX hooligan through will work, but is too slow to grab them like you can Ryu.
Her standing normals in general our better than ours as they out range us and have farther back hurt boxes as well. Her crouching normals have better hit boxes as well, however cr mp, cr hp, and cr hk are all unsafe on block to us so we really only have to worry about cr lp or cr lk, and cr mk when they are crouching. I lost to jab break ins from tick grabs or mistimed meaty wake ups more than anything else against Chun. After analyzing hit boxes though I realized our standing lk works really well here with our longer hit box and farther away hurt box vs their jab so go ahead and use this to bully them at close range if they don’t get the hint to stop mashing jab. I haven’t tested this, but in theory it’s +1 on block and out ranges their jab by a lot so even if you mash it and they mash jab you will still win on their wake up. You gotta figure after getting hit a few times by that they’ll finally get the hint, but you never know. The risk reward for them is really in their favor if they catch you with a cr lp. We have a few counters with meaty setups, but again you have to be hitting 1-2 frame setups every time otherwise you lose and are back at their advantageous neutral range as they get a knockdown and 200+ damage off a jab. I’m not saying we don’t get that too if our meaty hits, but it’s much easier to mash a jab than it is to land a 1-2 frame setup so they are definitely going to test you on wake up to see if you are on point.
At neutral our st mk is useless against her. All her standing punches beat it clean due to her hit boxes being in front of her hurt boxes and ours not. This is why you have to use cr mk (their standing hit box attacks miss our hurt boxes), however their cr mk and cr hk beat our cr mk, so that is why we have to mix in st hp as it beats both cr kick attacks. So basically at long range when they are poking with st hp and st mp you want to be throwing out cr mk. As they get a little closer you want to switch to st hp. While doing these two pokes you must be buffering SA every time to confirm into a knockdown . This is where we beat her, but a savvy Chun will know the various meaty setups that beat their mashing jab so you have to vary them. st mp, cr mp or cr lp, cr mp or cr lp to b+mp target combo catch the jab mashing, but I had the most success last night with SA dash v-skill cr mp. The cross up really messed with their timings and allowed me to open them up. Last thing of note in the neutral. Cr HP is ok too, but you can’t cancel it unless you have v-trigger/super. Since you can do it with st hp also I’d suggest just sticking to that unless they are playing a really far away game with just their sweep and st hp.
We definitely beat her when it comes to anti airs. She really can’t jump on us at all with her floaty jump. B+mp, st hk, and DP beat all of her jumps for the most part. I think we also beat her when we take to the air even with her st lk anti air. I think our EX Divekick allows us to get in on her for free and sets them up for a 50/50 on block and mix up on hit. Only thing is we need meter for it. We can also cross her up with j. lk pretty free for another setup. You just have to be smart about your jump ins.
You mentioned problems with shimmy’s as they hit you with cr mk into fireball on your walk back. The timing can be tough but if you shimmy back and hit V-skill it will go over their cr mk as you are returning to hit them. This works against Ryu’s who try and sweep the shimmy as well. The thing is it is risky though as mashing jab will beat it. You basically have to see what they are doing on your shimmy and react accordingly. Just like with everything with Cammy you have to train them and then blow them up for it or guess right the first time.
Don’t know how much this will help, but I will leave this here:
Was just testing out some anti air legs stuff and interestingly cr HP works really well. It gives you just as much time as a lk DP to react, but is easier to execute. On top of that if they do it too close you actually end up on the other side of Chun for a potential mixup. Not as much damage as DP but something to consider if you messing up your DP inputs in that tight situation.
Damn i faced an okay chun for the first time last night and it was an uphill battle. Because of my lack of match up experiance i spent most the match testing stuff just to physically experiance it. You really cannot jump at her traditionally. We really have to mess with dive kick to get in by air chuns st.lk is so damn good lol. The neutral was fun but brutal her footsies are so good her jab blows everything up easily lol. Once in ots fairly easy to stay in but if the frame traps are too slow she can jist jab out of em for free.
Ok I did some lab work tonight vs Chun but this can be applied to most any 3 frame jab character.
Optimal things to do in neutral:
Fish for knockdowns with cr. mk buffered into HK SA at long range. You will be trying to punish their pokes or walk forwards. Only Chun’s cr. kicks really beat it at long range, so if she starts sweeping just wait for it and block to punish with HK SA. As they get closer st HP buffered will work as well and is sometimes better than cr. mk because of the faster start up and hit priority. You can use st mk also to try and keep them out, but you really want to be going for the knockdown. Once you get the knockdown with HK SA you can go into a meaty setup like below. Sometimes just hitting V-Skill slightly after the HK SA will catch them on the other side if they aren’t ready for it or mashing jab also. It’s great if you hit the v-skill as you can do st hp into V-trigger combo for some serious damage.
Optimal meaty setup:
After a HK SA knockdown you can do an immediate dash into one of the frame traps below for a meaty hit. The timing varies slightly by the button pressed and if they are doing a normal or back recovery. You will have to set these up in training mode to learn the timings. A meaty will only hit if they press a button like jab. If they do EX Spinning Bird Kick you will be punished so you will need to vary when and when not to go for a meaty. Be aware of their meter and see what they like to do on wake up. Usually if the first two times you counter hit their jab or they noticed you hit a button on their wake up they’ll usually EX Spinning Bird Kick the third attempt or if they’re near KO, so it’s a good idea to just dash and block sometimes. If they do nothing on wake up and just block you can go into frame traps like below.
Optimal 3 frame traps:
Since Chun has a 3 frame jab and Chun players tend to use it a lot to stop Cammy, the below strings are setup to counter jabs being mashed in between your block string. These strings assume you have no meter or V-trigger, but obviously add them to the combos if you have them to increase damage/stun.
cr mp, cr. lp (CH), st hp xx HK SA - 176 dmg 339 stun (best stun and follow up potential of the frame trap options)
cr mp,cr. lp (CH), st hp xx HK CS - 192 379
(Puts you at perfect jump cross over distance if cr mp, cr lp is blocked, however most Chun’s can anti air it if they walk back so use it only if they are turtling hard or have bad reactions)
cr lp, b+mp (CH), st Hk xx HK SA - 216 dmg 330 stun
cr/st lp, b+mp(CH), st Hk xx HK CS - 240 370
cr. lp, cr. mp (CH), cr. mk xx HK SA
cr. lp, cr. mp (CH), cr. mk xx HK CS
st mp or v-skill, cr. mp (CH), cr. mk xx HK SA - 197 dmg 330 Stun
st mp, cr. mp (CH), cr. mk xx HK CS
Now that we have some good frame traps to use against Chun lets look at what we can do if they block everything.
**Optimal setups if they block the frame traps: ** (This is assuming they have learned to stop mashing jab)
If you notice they have started to block all of your meaty setups, as they have learned you are counter hitting their jab everytime, then this is where you can start trying for grabs. I recommend doing this after you first test for meaty/frame trap hits, as a grab does little damage and puts us back at neutral (basically where Chun wants us). It’s important to vary things up. Use the three different frame traps above to keep them guessing when it’s their turn, but sometimes you’ll also want to do just the first hit of the string and attempt a grab (tick grab). This is to keep them on their toes and forces them to start having to tech the grab or push a button we can counter hit. Keep in mind they can go back to mashing jab at anytime to stop your grab, but if they do just go back to doing frame traps instead.
Once they start teching your grabs (or even before) you can start employing shimmys. Shimmys are where you appear to be going for a tick grab, but instead do one hit and walk backwards a small amount to watch their tech grab attempt whiff. You then immediately walk forward to either grab them or hit a button like st mp or st hp into a combo to punish the whiffed grab. You can also shimmy to make jabs whiff, but you have to be face to whiff punish jabs. With Chun specifically you have to use a medium button to push yourself far away enough so that you have enough time/space to walk back before she jabs, otherwise she will put you in a block state before you can walk back. This sometimes will throw off the Chun player making them stop hitting jab so you can walk forward grab or they will hit another button that you can potentially counter hit with your st hp. The whole shimmy process happens in about 30 frames or a 1/2 second. So try to visualize you doing a cr. mp then a slight walk back, chun’s jab whiffs, then you hitting st hp to counter hit it all in about that time frame.
Ok so you’ve done all of this and they are still blocking everything and managing to tech all of your grabs making it impossible to get a hit in, so what do you do now? DIVE KICK!
Optimal dive kick setups:
EX instant dive kick (It’s too fast for Chun to react to honestly making it our only true free way in against Chun. It cracks that egg so to speak). This can be attempted after any blocked string above or when you think they won’t be expecting it. Basically why this works over the other options above is after you’ve finished your frame trap string the Chun player believes it is her turn to attack as she has successfully blocked your attacks, but instead you jump over her attack and counter hit it with a fast dive kick. On block you usually have frame advantage if you hit it near the waist or below so you can follow up with a jab/grab or in some cases a mp if you know they like to grab after a blocked dive kick for a counter hit combo (I like st mp, cr mk, HK SA if farther away or st mp, st hp HK SA if closer to connect). If the EX dive kick hits you can go for a follow CS, st HP, or a jab xx instant dash to cross under for a mixup.
Cammys regular divekicks work as well, but dive kicks can be anti aired by Chun’s st lk if they are ready for it (however not everyone can react that fast so definitely test to see if they have a good anti air game). On hit or counter hit you can go for a st lp or cr mp combo depending upon where you hit Chun. You’ll have to test this out for yourself to learn the ranges and timing, but I tend to go for below the waist and follow up with a lp or cr mp xx HK SA on counter that allows for another meaty/frame trap string.
Note: A lot of people tend to grab after a blocked dive kick as if you grab it will sometimes beat their jab if they mistimed the punish or they won’t punish and you’ll get a free grab. If you notice they are grabbing or teching your grab attempt after a blocked divekick or if you hit them too high to be safe you try doing a CS to punish. It won’t always work but it will teach them to respect your divekick if they keep trying to grab after every time they block it. You can also shimmy after a dive kick if you hit it about thigh high.
Below are a few more optional setups against Chun, but are harder to land or are situational.
Optimal Anti Air against Chun
Chun’s jump is very floaty so it’s easy to anti air with b+mp (follow up with dash to cross under), cannon spike, or st Hk (follow up with CS if counter hits). If she does instant air lightning legs after one of her strings, a LK cannon spike will beat it clean. Cr HP is also very effective at punishing it if you are having trouble doing the CS input in time.
Optimal cross up against chun: (also beats jab mashing)
If you happen to get over a Chun player try these combos
jp lk, lp, b+mp, st Hk xx MK SA 225 373 end in CS instead if in corner for 243 403
or if you prefer the easier option jp lk, cr mp, cr mp xx HK SA 212 345 works as well.
Optimal regular jump in against chun:
If the Chun player has no anti air or is poorly timing it this combo works great (only have to hit it twice to stun Chun)
jp Hk, st mp, st hp xx hk CS 292 500
(I use the HK over the HP here because it will sometimes beat mistimed anti air lk’s of hers vs HP losing)
Optimal Crush Counter after EX SBK: (This is for when the Chun player realizes mashing jab isn’t working so they EX reversal instead, but you block)
St Hk (CC), slight walk forward, st. mp, st. hp xx HK CS 310 530
St Hk (CC), f+HK, cr. mp xx HK CS 312 490
Optimal fireball punishes
A well timed V-skill will go through an anticipated fireball for a punish. On hit you can do st hp into special or V-trigger. You can follow up with cr. mp if they happen to block it as you are +2.
You can critical art on reaction with the correct kick based upon range. V-Trigger spiral arrow will also go through them to punish. If used after a cr mk, (cr mk xx fireball) you can try and cannon spike after the mk, but it is hard to land and if you mess up you will get hit by the fireball.
EX Hooligan isn’t fast enough to grab her, unless they stay standing, but it will get you in after a fireball and is +3 on block so you can follow it up with something.
EX SA on reaction will also go under them for some weak damage. I don’t recommend wasting the meter for this unless it’s for KO.
I think I touched on most things, but if you have any troubles or questions let me know. I’m also sure there is some other tech I haven’t discovered yet, but this is what I’ve figured works against her for now.
Awesome write up! I’ll definitely be applying this to my gameplan.
Had such a big problem with a Chun last night, got pretty salty!
Felt like I couldn’t press any buttons from poking distance and V skill mixups were just crushed by EX spinning bird and jabs.
Gonna have to read through that write up above I guess, only just started playing Cammy and one round she can seem overwhelmingly strong and the next not very.
Kazunoko is doing serious work with her anyway so I should probably go study his games.
@Sure_you_can I have matches against Chun where I perfect her and then she perfects me. It’s definitely one of those match ups where Cammy can seem overwhelmingly strong and the next not very.
Here’s one I was trying to post earlier but the replays were totally broken then. Forgive the music. I had no idea it was recording.
@SunTzu81 Wow I totally see what you mean.
It only takes a couple of combos either way for stun and that’s pretty much it after that. I’ll just have to make time for training mode and play with the set ups that beat Chun’s jab.
Really good video for this match up. Make note of the distance in the neutral and how he uses ex and none ex dive kicks from that position to get in. This is to minimize Chun’s use of her neutral buttons. EX dive kick is a free in and is the only thing that really beats chun’s st hp by not allowing it to be used at that range. Normal dive kicks work as well but you have to be within st hp range so they are riskier and have to be better timed. Basically you want to look for a small window in between her buttons and aim low with them to avoid her st lk anti air and being grabbed after if they block it.
St lk is really good in this match up and allows for a frame trap into cr lp. You can follow up into st hp xx special on counter hit. The next best thing is you can easily tick grab from it without walking. You’ll see it used a lot through out the matches. This seems to beat the cr mp, lp and cr lp, cr mp frame traps I list above as it has far less push back.
Look for the cr medium kick at the end of Chun’s strings. You’ll notice Cammy blows up pretty much every fireball from this string. Just look for the cr mk from Chun. As soon as you see it do the dp and it will punish. Chun’s use this a lot as it’s seen as it’s their go to safe pressure ender.
After hitting a DP, dashing forward and hitting st HP is a must in this match up. It’s a meaty that beats jab and keeps the pressure on unless they back recovery which just helps us get them in the corner faster. If they happen to block it puts you back at that perfect neutral range.
One other thing to note is Xiaohai doesn’t try and really stop the instant air lightning legs. Xiaohai tends to just block and wait out those strings and I have to agree with him. The risk/reward just isn’t there for Cammy. If you mistime it you eat a full combo, if you hit her it’s a jab or DP which isn’t much damage.