Discussion on the Cammy vs Ken match-up goes here.
I fought a Ken player last night at a local. First time I’ve played offline in forever. I realized during the match that I really do not know the match (the commentator on the stream even mentioned that I looked unfamiliar).
How are we approaching Ken? He started blowing up my AAs with air tatsu and I couldn’t find the right AA for it. Any tips on fighting Ken would be appreciated before I hit the lab.
Here are some good tips to start with:
I usually use st.mk a lot. whiff punish sweep with mk arrow
after hk arrow you can dash nj and his MP srk will whiff, and if he delay techs against meaty you can land and get a full combo. lp srk beats this tho.
generally speaking cammy just sort of out pokes him, but he has better damage so you really gotta be on point
[quote=“Maximiliano, post:3, topic:179037”]
Here are some good tips to start with:[/quote]
those were a few things I had labbed before seeing this. Cammy can easily target combo or cr. MP combo from cancels. and V-Trigger off DP. It’s good to know. Thank you.
What do you think is the best punish for Ken’s raw V-skill from neutral range? They either use V-skill cancel into normal, grab, or DP making it a cluster fuck of a guessing game. I realize the best option is to punish it before it reaches you however sometimes it’s hard to react to. I had one today just abusing the shit out of this thing and even though I was looking for it I kept getting caught on trades eating huge damage compared to what I could counter it with. Each trade, block or tech always seem to end up hugely in his favor, while my counter hit did pathetic damage if I was able to counter in time and at the right distance. I was mainly using cr. mp, cr. mp xx HK SA to catch it but was having issues with the second one whiffing sometimes so I switched to cr. mp xx SA but it doesn’t do any damage. The only thing I found acceptable damage wise was st hk CC into hk DP but the start up makes it tough. You basically have to hit it right when you see the run otherwise you get counter hit. With the input lag plus average human reactions you basically have like a 1-2 frame window to hit st hk which makes it really tough. Was just curious if someone knew of something that was more effective to punish it.
If you can hit them with cr.mp, cr.mp, then you should be able to use st.mp>st.hpxx HK SA. IMO, as long as you can consistently stuff and punish the V-Skill with something, then it’s fine. No matter how small, it’s free damage.
Also, here’s data from the Ken forums on the (dis)advantage he gains from all normals and specials when he cancels them into V-Skill and Trigger: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UsS0lUuT9Bb-SlXFUXnvj0QeDFSbYbKSNXBo7vxZq4Q/edit#gid=1676629554
Sorry I’m not referring to run cancels, like when ken hits st hp then V-Skills to cancel and runs forward (obviously those are easy to punish as they add extra frames). I’m referring to v-skill raw where he runs forward without a cancel much like a dash but then hits a button after that is buffered into the end of the run (buffering begins on frame 18). I’m finding it extremely hard to react to as they can adjust total spacing based upon the buttons pressed. It’s more difficult to deal with then dash because they can vary the distance based on the button or movement. For example if Ken V-skills and holds back Ken will stop short. If you attempt a grab, as most dash/v-skill then grab, it will whiff and he will punish you. If he v-skills and grabs and you are 3 frames late on your button press to punish you will get grabbed. If he v-skills from a far (a distance you swear he can’t hit you) and you throw out cr mk to try and catch it and he buffers EX DP it will catch you. These three variations of distances plus the reaction time make it hard to deal with consistently as you put it. It’s in his favor to keep attempting it so I’m hoping someone has had some success in punishing it more effectively. Something that catches it fairly easy and does good damage. Obviously what you want to do is not allow him to get the setups he wants, but three variations on one move make it very difficult to avoid this. Dealing with dash grabs is hard enough, but it being a varying distance dash move makes it even harder. The issue I’m having is you can’t rely on one button to really deal with it. St mp will catch it much like cr mp but the follow up is unsure (whiffing with Cammy = death). St mk seems to beat it clean, but little damage and no follow up. I’ve tried mashing jab too but if he st hk’s you’re screwed. It’s a constant guessing game for you. I’d rather be facing Chun’s IALLs at this point.
Imagine if Cammy could V-skill and then cancel it and hit a button in the middle instead. Would people consider that fair? In comparison Ken’s V-skill is 22 frames with zero frames of startup with a 5 frame buffer that can follow up into anything, Cammys v-skill is 50 frames with 35 frames of startup and can cross up. Frames were added because Capcom felt it was too fast, yet they didn’t feel Ken’s was? They made his step kick -6 but all other moves at the end of v-skill do not have any additional negative frames. It doesn’t make sense to me that they made his v-skill like this so that standard follow up moves were safe whereas step kick wasn’t. Shouldn’t this have been the other way around? A step kick is meant as a way to get in but had no follow up, now he gets a fast in with a buffer with a follow up that isn’t negative?
crLP stHP xx SA/DP/VT does the trick for me to deal with his run in neutral or cancel from normals. I need to use the 3f in order to make it easier to react to. Against crMP, for example, you can press crLP with a timing that allows you to block the fireball and punish the run, so you don’t need to react if he is mixing you up with this. Sure, he can beat that if he knows that you’re going to jab with that timing, but anyway, its better than trying to react with a 5f normal, specially online.
Oh, I know you were talking about dealing with raw V-Skill, I just wanted to put that data in the thread.
I press st.lk if I see a run.
They usualy get annoyed from this and after the 2-3 time they start mashing dp,thats the moment I stop and start the orchestra of pain.
I never felt Ken is that good against Cammy, but that he gets to much damage out of every god damn situation and thats why he has so many chances to come back.
Also his V-Trigger is kinda TOO good… He can kill in 1 mixup after a knockdown, because Cammy will get stunned even after his “low” damage/stun mixup combo that is cr.lk,cr.lp xx mk. tatsu , EX DP (V-Trigger Only)…
i’m gonna murder whoever made air tatsu’s hurtbox. you’d think cammy would at least trade if you b+mp his feet, but nope. no hurtbox at ken’s feet! can our divekicks get that treatment?
i definitely need to condition myself to DP in this match up (but then what if the ken alters his air tatsu timing?). that or just block. is st.hk any good vs air tatsu?
actually, does nj or jump back lp work? not too sure how ken’s juggle properties work. the risk/reward might be heavily in ken’s favor if he can still get a juggle dp if air tatsu trades with j.lp.
j.mp is 5f start up but with 5 active frames and the way she swings her hand, it might be good as a pre-emptive aa as soon as you see ken jump from a bit farher away (this might not be practical because of jump frames and then 5f start up though)? and then from even farther away (ken going for a hail mary ex tatsu or something), maybe nj.mk or nj.hk?
definitely need to lab this match up.
oh. and dash under. that’s something i haven’t used much at all in sf5 because of how easy to use b+mp is, but it’s something i’ve been meaning to implement into my game. then again, air tatsu does have a hitbox behind ken at some point, so probably not.
I really, really hate air tatsus.
stHK is not good vs air tatsu.
I mean, if you time it right ofc you’ll win, but the timing that beats air tatsu loses to normal jump in. So its bad.
Air to air has to be used really well, usually with jumpbacks/neutral jumps LP. You want to be far from the the first hit of the tatsu and use the fastest normal.
The only thing I could realistic use to react to Ken’s EX air tatsu is crouching hp. Don’t ask me why but it makes it totally whiff. Trying to dash, CS, b+mp, jab, SA out were all pretty much caught if the Ken does an instant one, but as soon as you hear it start or see the flash just hit cr HP and it whiffs. Not sure who has advantage after though as both Cammy and Ken seem to recover too close to call.
Cr. HP is good at avoiding many aerial attacks in general. I have been in the situation a few times a week where a player jumps as I’m doing cr. HP and they completely whiff.
Hm,with the right timing,we might be able to tripguard them if we whiff cr.hp early enough.
This might be hard, I have to try it,there might be a possibility.
Feeling myself Ken ex DP punish
nj. hp, TC xx hooligan~k, CS 340/540 dmg
Too bad it plays second fiddle to CC, TC xx Hooligan~k CS 340/540 dmg.
How do u react to Ken V-run or V-Step Kick? sumtimes is really hard to react to, sum of ken scrubs likes to do that, or sum gud ones and is damn hard to punish V-Step Kick on tip, max range block? and game plan for dealing with ken?
Yeah it’s a pain. If they are doing them up close to get hits or grabs you have to throw out pre-emptive cr mp or st mp to try and catch them.