Can a Good Guy Win it All or Is he Just Average?

guy

#21

lol I knew this thread would cause debates.I still stand by my opinion. Guy might be able to win a few tourneys against some good players, but he would need to be lucky to win something major. He just has too many disadvantages against other characters where you need to be considerably better then the opponent to win consistently if they are using a better character. There are also some close match ups where it depends more on the player then the character so it’s not a simple debate. Regardless, he’s low tier for a reason and that’s because more characters have a better chance to win against you and that is evident in tournaments as well. There’s a reason why tournament players who usually make top 8 don’t pick guy and that’s cause they can’t make top 8 that often with him. He lacks the tools and has to work much harder then many characters to win.

Usually about 70-80% of players that go to tournaments are average or decent at best so it’s really not that impressive that a guy player plows through them with ease if the player is good. I won’t take away the wins that a few guy players have taken away from top names that we know, but how often do you see a guy player make it to the top in japan or US/EU? Guy is barely mentioned in the top 16 at tourneys for the past 2 years, never mind him actually winning the whole tournament.

It’s not like players don’t pick up guy because he’s an appealing character. He’s probably one of the coolest and most popular characters in street fighter but people don’t pick him up cause he sucks compared to many other characters. The tiers have agreed with this, most people agree with this. You just gotta look at all the evidence out there and you’ll come to the same conclusion. Guy got the short end of the stick in this game, not much else we can do.


#22

2012 is basically a make or break for him and if anything he will be Midtier at best, which just makes it where you have to still work for win, especially since Honda is going to be another bad match up for Guy once again, also Honda has the Sagat treatment Overhead only hits him once but there are a few things about this that happen to make things good for Guy, if a bushin flip elbow manages to hit them while they are crouched you can connect a cr lk on both of them.


#23

He will make short work of you with his ninja blades.


#24

I couldn’t help but to respond to the point you made saying the above, I like Guy a huge fan since Final Fight. And its true speaking for myself I do want to best him. The fact that history has shown that a Guy or a low tier hasn’t proven that it can happen, meaning to win it all, but rather we like it or not, Street Fighter isn’t becoming just a game anymore. Big Tournaments in your city that 's pretty big on Fighting Genre like L.A. Canada, Mexico, New York, Brazil, and Japan, is going to feature SSFVI as a headline then others like MK or Blaz or MVC3. Plus there’s money involved who wouldn’t want to win $1000 to $50,000 greenbacks? I wouldn’t be surprised if major networks will make this a true serious profession if it isn’t already…a big example is World Series of Poker speaks for itself. Also Youtube continues to have many vids on the character that you can look up, people on SRK post them all the time. So my point? The days where you play Street Fighter and get a good ending and play it as a hobby and sit it down is over. That’s been dead a long time ago. Picking up SSFVI is like saying you playing to compete to win, to be on EVO and Youtube highlights. It’s like saying nobody is going to spit a rhyme and not try to sell you a CD at the same time, I’m from Chicago trust me I know. And this why I point my finger at Capcom and keep saying it’ll be a big turn off for SSFVI to be this big only for the same Top Tiers to keep winning, and true it does depend on your dedication to the character, but at the same time if there is *virtually no way no how *for an average character to win then there’s big adjustments that Capcom needs to make, to keep characters like Guy on fair grounds so people won’t say stuff with strong sarcasm like " well if you want to win EVO go Shoto" which is lame. Guy has the tools he’s been around Street Fighter for a long time, give him his just due. Cause people get tired of the same old tiers blowing out tourny’s it’s getting played out. And thanks to all replying to thread.


#25

@Kreymore, @AlboShinobi, @Bushin Clan Totally agreed!
@Strider Hiryu Are you kidding me? You’ve got Makato as a Avatar to start with dude… Your argument is really pointless…having one player who is good with the character, and the fact that we may suck with him doesn’t change the fact that most professional players wouldn’t pick him (but would pick stronger characters like your Makoto or Yun). nobody here said it’s impossible to win with him, We’re just saying the chances are lower…


#26

Damn Right!


#27

I was wondering when this argument would eventually start up, i guess I’ll throw in my 2 dollars and 52 cents.

Can he win it all? you may as well ask if someone’s health bar can go down to zero at some point. Of course he can. Street fighter isn’t about tiers, hitboxes play a factor but it isn’t about that either. It’s about mind games, straight up.

Guy has to work harder than most of the cast to win things, even match ups like vanilla seth vs. gief, guy still has it “harder”. Yeah that match is terrible but gief needs 3 good guesses to win that matchup (don’t turn this into an discussion of how bad that match up was please, I’m well aware gief has no knockdown pressure against him but his ultra would damn near LIFE BAR seth), and that’s it. Guy’s strength lies in punishment and baiting, these are both factors that can be negated by the opponent playing well. Don’t get baited, stay calm, don’t drop combos, you’ll beat guy IN THEORY. However if guy guesses well more than you (and he’ll have to guess very well) he’ll still win. But the guessing game is never in guy’s favor so this is naturally a rare occurrence.

Anyone can win with anyone will always be true, but once a certain skill level is reach by both players, statistics will arise and it will become statistically unlikely that one character will win, and in this case Guy is that character. This boils down to a discussion of how you want to play the game, do you want to play the top tier character or the character you want to play? There are players of both types who have had great success but I’m not going to name names to avoid bias clouding my point. All in all Kreymore said it best, “Will a player risk $3,000 at a major to prove that he can win with Guy?” I don’t expect the answer will be yes unless some amazingly talented unsponsered unknown player (and probably more importantly with the amount of prize money in tournaments always going up: Loaded) decides he wants to try, if he even exists.


#28

That’s a nice explanation. When you reach a certain level, the player with the better character will win more. However, if a character is solid enough to compete, then it depends more on the player. That’s how people got far at evo with viper, gief, seth, etc. As long as those characters have enough going for themselves, then the player will have the tools he needs to win and that’s when its all up to mind games. That’s why Daigo lost. He lost to the player not the character because the opponent’s character had enough tools to win and since Daigo’s character also had enough tools (For Yun it’s to his advantage) it ended up boiling down to the player’s skill which is what street fighter should be about.

I’m sorry but Guy is not one of those characters. Many will argue this but I don’t deem him a viable character for tournaments, and I think the results from the past 2 years speak for themselves. I know you can still get far with him, but in my opinion, in order for a character to be viable for tournaments, it would mean he has to have the tools to get as far as top 8 at evo and have the chance to win like a few other mid tiers. He’s not solid enough and if even Daigo were to pick up Guy right now, I would honestly bet money that he wouldnt get that far in major tournaments. It’s too bad we can’t put that theory to the test but top players already have a hard enough time winning with top tier characters. How do you expect them to win with a character that is limited?? How is there mind games when the opponent knows you only have a few options in certain situations, and most of them are unsafe. I’m talking about top level of play here. I don’t care who gets far with what character at normal events. That’s irrelevant when discussing the maximum potential of a character compared to others.

Ryu became mid tier, but he still has enough tools to win even if the player has to work harder then before. At least the character is viable enough to give the player a chance to win it all. I don’t like to get into these arguments cause it can get really deep but I want people to look at it in a realistic perspective. You can’t expect to win a tournament with a dagger when most of your opponents are using swords…


#29

I really like the mid-point, because rather if it was intentional or not…the theory that if Daigo picked up Guy kind of brought his talent into question, as stupid or petty as it sounds, Im just rationalizing the fact that some if not most of us that pay close attention to Daigo’s play would say well “he’s the greatest player that ever played Street Fighter " but when we think Daigo we think Ryu. Which is why I thought he tried to switch things up by using Yun so we can all say " Damn he didn’t even use Ryu in Evo he really is great” but FACT Yun is top Tier, God Tier IMO, I remember when SSFVI first came out he was playing with Guy and I was shocked maybe he was testing the game or just fooling around but it showed me he was ready to be different. But You talking about a person who used Ryu for 15-17yrs so it’s hard for me to expect him to or see him win it without Ryu, because he uses star characters *alot, *even when it came to Guilty Gear he used Sol Bad Guy against I think Kaqn or Zakiyama . But Daigo does know Street Fighter and has tournament play for about 15-17yrs so he would know hands down what character is a none factor in the game. Which means since he dropped Guy or don’t play him Guy is a dagger and not a sword. But Daigo is one if the greatest so if he used him and won…is it the player and not the character? So I think those were good points by Albo and Brunaleski.


#30

Guy could be a legit character if one of two things happened. His jump was better or His bushin flip was better. I think by now everyone here knows about characters using low profile normal to duck under Guy’s elbow drops which effectively removes almost any ability he has to move in through the air. It’s one of the reasons guy has to work way too hard to win. It’s the one huge flaw in his game. If the bushin elbow had a better hit box and more block stun Guy would be fine.


#31

To correct you there, his jump is fine and has always been floaty there’s no dodging that, if they made his jumpins better it would be better for him (which hopefully they are in the v2012) There isnt much than can do to make his Bushin flip better, its either make elbow an overhead which to honest with its current amount of blockstun it wouldn’t be good, and the only way to make the flip better is by making him travel through the air faster, last part though i agree with.


#32

Do I really need to post more videos from the Alpha series? Guy never had a super floaty jump until this game. Making his jump ins better solves nothing since he never uses his jump ins outside of already getting a KD. Bushin flips is already plenty fast as it is too outside of the LP one and making the elbow an overhead is pointless since that’s not his problem his problem is that Bushin flip is his only way to jump over stuff and the elbow drop from Bushin is the only normal he can do out of it and it’s avoided by any character with a low profile normal which leads to heavy punishment. Because of this Guy is stuck fighting through on the ground taking gambles with Run, Shoulders, and Hurricane to close the gap or hoping to get off not a reaction (cause by then it’s too late) but a anticipated bushin flip so he can get in and even if he does Bushin elbow is still 0 on block o he’s at minimal advantage a best.

I’m not going to argue this because these changes are not happening in 2012 and that’s it. Guy is a ground based character that only uses the air to get into range and that’s it. He will always suffer against good defensive characters so if you wanna win you have to learn to deal with it.


#33

<- plays and A2/A3 on ggpo on a very consistent basis,

He has a very long jump, he stays in the air longer than most of the cast. even in Alpha jump ins were not the way to go because a simple cr lp from almost all of the cast would AA your jump, compared to Alpha his bushin flips in AE are slow, so even in Alpha Guy was a ground based characters because his normals were top-notch he didn’t really need to jump,sure if his Jump wasn’t floaty in AE it would be better but he’d still lose out due to all his jumpins being defeated by lowprofile moves. A faster jump isn’t going to stop a shoto from doing a cr mk to avoid everything you can dish out aside from a deep j hk or mp. Also if his elbow was an overhead and had a bigger hitbox/hitstun Guy would have a better outcome in his pressure, why because if he hits the opponent standing especially on taller characters he’d be at frame advantage or at least even all the time, right now if you did Bushin Elbow on say Sagat, and he blocked it standing, you’ll be at -1 or lower. There’s no need to argue about this nor did I ever say I couldn’t deal with how Guy plays you also need to understand this isn’t Alpha. Some of Guy’s Alpha tactics may work in AE but he isn’t the same way and most of all low profile moves will defeat most of his pressure. Also in any Street Fighter you shouldn’t rely on jump ins to get you in, especially if you’ve play Alpha, 3s or CVS2.


#34

As a Guy main since Alpha2 I can say something about :

In my opinion Guy’s jump wasn’t ‘floaty’ in past games but HIGHER than average , which is different . Now it’s really ‘floaty’ , slow , crappy , something like Dhalsim’s . I really can’t understand why Capcom made it like this now .

About topic’s question , the answer is NO . Unfortunately he lacks the safe and consistency needed to be real competitive no matter how well you play with . In original SSF4 he was bottom tier and now he is only average in best perspective , and it looks like that situation won’t change with 2012 version . To be honest , I actually main him only for fun and because he is one of coolest characters from capcom games . He always was a difficult character to master , but once you got his game you were able to deal with everyone , but now this work/reward ratio is much unfavorable . This is an undeniable truth .

The worst thing is that isn’t so hard to change this situation , little adjustements could bring some of his old strenght back … basically some little priority , and MAINLY hit/block stun .

So , let’s play for fun guys .


#35

I think the main problem with elbow drop isn’t the overhead and crossup thing . The main problem is that you have almost no advantage even if you land it , reducing his pressure game possibilities a lot .


#36

Well all I can say is if someone can win a tournament with 12 in 3S then by god they can win something with Guy. Hopefully 2012 makes it easier…


#37

Blooddrunk

I agree with you about the jump thing … it is really slow , but make it faster wouldnt solve the problem cause jumping was never the best way to get in with Guy , specially in this game . He needs a better bushin flip (more priority to throw and some hit/block stun to elbow) .


#38

So I think this needs to be said: I’m noticing people keep bringing up the word arguing as if anything someone says will turn into debates or an attitude. My response to that is please quit being soft to speak or hesitant to correct or have an opinion about something someone says, cause everyone has the freedom to speak whatevers on they’re mind, so if you can’t handle opinions or feel like somebody’s gonna get they’re wittle feelings hurt please don’t post. This thread was also made to help others that read SRK on a daily basis to decide if they would like to main Guy, see his strengths and weakness and also questioning if he should be alot stronger than he is. Thanks to those who post replies on this thread, that’s very smart with Guy…I’m sure some learned and decided what they want to do with Guy, after all this is under Thread Character Guy. I’ve learned alot so far about Guy and I’m still gonna swift kick assess with him and attempt tournament runs. So please express whatever ideas you all have, thoughts and debates are welcomed. I’m not playing for fun, I’m playing to win as I said before who wouldn’t want money at the end of a win, and I’m hoping that if it’s not me that someone can win an EVO with Guy my answer to this: He or she can win. Don’t ya get tired of the same old characters taking over? So is it just okay for our character to be average?


#39

We’ve tried telling capcom since ssf4 what Guy needs and most of the suggestions that people have made wouldn’t even make Guy top tier. Just good enough to compete at high levels, but the decisions that Capcom has made can be mind boggling to think about, especially when comparing to Guy to his Alpha iterations. It’s possible that Capcom doesnt want Guy to be good for whatever reason or maybe they don’t care about him. There’s still one last chance to see where Guy ends up and if he gets the changes he needs, but I don’t know if Capcom will show that they listen or not. I’ve done what I can to send the message, posted on unity too where they said they read it and after all that reasoning and fair suggestions from everyone and Capcom ends up not delivering, then I’ll never take the time and energy to make suggestions in a Capcom game again cause I’ll know it wouldn’t be worth it. We will find out what happens in a few weeks. Until then, don’t give up yet cause you never know.


#40

It’s really boring to see always the same characters rule the game … the same characters , same moves , same combos and strategies , same crappy matchup thing … but , if capcom doesn’t give people the necessary tools to change this status quo , things will be the same forever .

I hope v2012 will bring us some good news …