Can we actually discuss the game?

gouken

#1

Posting is rare nowadays, people who actually post worth a damn ever more rare…

Can we actually discuss the game instead of crying about “feelings” and “preferences” ???


#2

Sure. So Ricki Ortiz recently said on excellent adventures that gouken was “hella good online”. As gouken mains, what do y’all think of that statement? I think he’s pretty good in ultra, but my frame of reference is pc. Though the times I played on Xbox live, I didn’t notice a tangible increase in player skill.


#3

There’s only about 5-6 match ups that make me say FML. Other than that most match ups are winnable. And if they don’t know the match up then you can get a couple of easy victories.


#4

He’s good online because he destroys impatient play. So many people just refuse to stay on the ground online, which is something Gouken is pretty decent at taking advantage of.
And then I face someone who knows what a focus attack is, and I ragequit and go play ST on fightcade or something =V


#5

Yeah focus attack is my bane as well. There’s been an influx of new players on pc and it makes me laugh when I see certain things from them. Mashing being the first. It’s like someone put out a memo for that shit. Every one of them mashes. On the other hand, mashing hardly ever works out for me haha!

Two being no neutral game whatsoever, but by God can they land a long fancy ass combo!

Has gouken been outclassed in pure damage potential in this game? If so, by whom?


#6

^^^ Dudley and E Ryu since they can confirm into it. Cody does a ton of damage as well.


#7

Yeah Gouken’s damage isn’t really the best anymore but it’s by far the most efficient since he only needs 1 meter.


#8

Evil Ryu does 373 without meter, from cl. HP (->MK Stomp->cr. MP->LK Tatsu->HP SRK).

Gouken does more if he spends an EX bar and comboes to HK Tatsu.

Otherwise, cr. HP->EX Palm->HP Palm does less than Evil Ryu’s meterless cl. HP combo.


#9

Eeeeeh, the first two, agreed, but Cody, not so much. His really impressive damage is generally pretty impractical to set up, with the possible exception of counter-hit f.MP linked to U2.


#10

All the good Codys I play space everything out well and counter hit Everything… And that shit hurt… Gouken does more damage but Cody can confirm it better during footsies… And his moves don’t push you away so your stun count stays up.


#11

Cody’s frametrap game works well against gouken because tatsu is high risk and kongo is high guess.

you watch tourney vids of cody players pulling everyday-offense-against-gouken on other characters and people go crazy with the hype because it was actually risky doing that shit.


#12

Yeah I agree.

I was just answering the question of how Gouken is out classed damage wise.

Aside jump in strats Gouken is pretty risky too.


#13

Cammy, Decapre, Yun, Fei get easy damage so while their combos aren’t the most damaging in the game, they can land two combos equaling 500+ points with less risk and effort than Gouken needs for one max combo.


#14

I feel the same way about Gouken. Strong character when your opponent decides to jump, much weaker when your opponent just walks forward and uses the focus attack. I’ve always thought the focus attack is a shitty mechanic, shame it exists. Gouken would be a good character otherwise.


#15

Yeah, we need to be wary of FAs.

But if you wait till the last moment when they can no longer dash away, then EX Tatsu easily counters it.

You can also footsie preemptively with cr.LK->LP Palm, in the same way Ryu might use his f+HP against FAs.

I wish LP Palm had more push-back, because it looks so weak when it gets blocked.


#16

I used to have a problem with focus attacks but I found out that standing light kick alone can be useful against it, and against those characters that just don’t respect your ground space. Of course you can’t be predictable. works for my playstyle at least. got no problems no mo


#17

I think throwing out pokes at mid range is just not a very good idea, gouken thrives on whiff punishment. He isn’t very good at taking the initiative except after a throw, and that kind of includes just throwing out pokes. But his moves are perfect for low-risk whiff punishment. Low recovery, good on block, good damage, good active frames. Most goukens online play a strategy that revolves around using a bunch of quick LKs, forward dash and throw and light attack strings. That works online but I don’t think taking it offline will work.

You want to get a lead with fireballs and then sit in the mid range daring them to hit a button. If you’ve got setups off sweep then using sweep to whiff punish can get you even more ahead and set you up for success. You can do the occasional “okie doke” of just dashing up to throw them if you think they’re asleep but otherwise I think it’s too risky. I don’t think Gouken wants to be next to the opponent unless he’s + on block or has the opponent cornered.

Granted this stuff is really general and different matchups are different. But in general I think Gouken’s best strategy against the better characters is to zone (if they have fireballs, play better than them here, any character with 1 meter beats gouken at zoning) as much as possible while pushing forward with dash after throwing a fireball or just walking up, and then once you hit the mid range, trying to walk in and out to hold that space, punishing their attemps to poke with either focus or gouken’s good standing normals (MP HP sometimes MK, that sort of thing). I think using gouken’s crouching normals is a terrible idea unless you are punishing something/whiff punishing (cr.HP x hp is really really good at this!) because he’s just too fat and they aren’t really that great anyway except sweep.

Any damage opportunity should end in corner carry if possible over raw damage because gouken is OP in the corner and controls that kind of space really well, whereas his midscreen game really leaves to be desired. I will literally end my jab jab jab x tatsu combo in FADC -> j.MP x tatsu for corner carry. Fthrow in the corner should really just mean you win IMO, with all the nonsense gouken has (try fthrow->backdash->jump forward->cr.MP x hdaoken FADC, this works a lot).

All this stuff is just my opinion, but this approach to the game+learning to anti-air better is what has made me a better player recently and for now I’m standing by everything here. Finding whiff punishes against common pokes and really learning to threaten that space with them is just so imperative. You can’t beat Rose unless you can whiff punish cr.MP with st.MP if she’s breathing. I said in another thread I thought this was like way too hard, and it is hard, but if you can do it it opens her up a lot. That sort of thing.


#18

So I’ve been using Ultra II most of the time since you can combo of ex palm and regular palm in the corner, this has been working pretty well. I’ve used Ultra I mostly in the Balrog match up to catch turnarounds in the Chun match up since I catch a lot of hazanchus with focus, but recently I’ve been saving meter to fadc ex palm into ultra I for the insane damage. I like the damage but I don’t know if it’s worth it in most match ups since it cost three bars and I’m losing out on a lot opportunities to get some stun. What the general feelings about this? What match up favor what ultras?


#19

So fireball characters I’ll use ultra 2, blanka to punish his balls, Vega to punish his wall stuff, fuerte to punish everything he does, Rufus to air fireball ultra, rose to do it on her strings to soul spiral, and so on


#20

FADC Shin Sho is not really that much more damage than ex palm to Denjin, especially when you consider:

  1. you lost 2 bars (2 ex tatsus or a fb fadc to knockdown/reset)
  2. you did no stun

But, if you’re all about getting the damage asap, then its not the worst decision to use it.