Charting character stats, need Chun input

Just looking for input on this in general, and for each character specifically.

As stated I’d like to keep discussion for each character in the separate threads I am making in their respective sub forums, and input on the idea in general in the above thread.

Also as stated, despite discussion in this thread being open to anyone it would help me separate the wheat from the chaff if each forum could appoint someone who knows what the hell they are talking about to give me the numbers to plug into my spread sheet.

My garbage numbers for Chun:

U1
Endurance - 2.5
Reversal ---- 2
AA ------------ 4
Zoning ------- 3
Rush --------- 3.5
Mix up -------- 3.5
Dmg pot ----- 3
Viability ------- 2.5

U2
Endurance - 2.5
Reversal ---- 2
AA ------------ 4
Zoning ------- 3
Rush --------- 3.5
Mix up -------- 3.5
Dmg pot ----- 3
Viability ------- 2.5

Other than the Endurance these are little more than place holder numbers. Input greatly appreciated.

The end result of all of this will be a spreadsheet with pull down menus to compare up to three characters like so:

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/2461/adonmak.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

So who’s going to do this then?

Some forums are taking to it quite well, and I get tons of feedback. Others are ghost towns.

My goal is to get the numbers fleshed out in the next month or so, then re-do them 6 or so months after the 2012 patch, so we can quantify the changes.

I have no issue with it, its just if you want someone everyone on here trusts I think it needs a brief conversation… Rather than just someone randomly sending you numbers lol

Definitely. I’ll PM people directly for input, do you have suggestions?

@pattybenpatty; cool, seems like an interesting endeavor. I’m no Chun expert, so don’t take my word for it, but I would say that her reversal rating should be a 1. You don’t go into much detail in your other, “main” thread, so maybe I’m missing something. She can reversal super and ultra 1 against a good amount of stuff, but her wakeup reversal options are EX SBK (which, as stated in some other thread, can be beaten by a fair amount of shenanigans) and back dash. Actually, now that I typed all that out, I guess 2 seems more accurate. I’ll leave the post though, 'cause it might spark someone else’s thoughts about something else.

So is the scale 0 to 5 or 1 to 5? I ask because I was about to put down my rough estimation about where Chun is, but wasn’t sure whether to use 2.5 or 3 as the middle-point. If it’s 0-5 then 2.5 is average, if it’s 1-5 then 3 is average.

Here is my estimation using 0 through 5 (meaning 2.5 is average)
Endurance - 2
Reversal ---- 1
AA ------------ 3.5 (would be higher, but number of different anti-airs and lack of devoted anti-air made me drop it)
Zoning ------- 4
Rush --------- 2.5
Mix up -------- 2.5
Dmg pot ----- 2

I didn’t enter a viability score because trying to assess a character’s viability is basically an overall assessment of how good the character is compared to the other characters, which is what this chart aims to analyze anyway. Seemed like an unnecessary statistic. If I HAD to enter a Viability number for the sake of being uniform, I would say it’s a 3.

I know it has its issues but EX Sbk being 5 five frames, covering the space that it does, and leading to corner juggle ultras/back to full screen zoning make her reversal game better than a 1.

The kind of characters that would suit such a score would be blanka (until 2k12) or sakura. Unless you can be safe meatied by 80% of the cast or your reversal can be ultra punished on hit, or the invincibility frames don’t last til activation, your reversal game is at worst a 2. And a 2 seems like an incorrect score anyway, given the things that your reversals lack, are the things that make other reversal games into 5s and 4s, surely.

That said, the scale is pretty arbitrary.

Also is it just me or does the term reversal not mean reversal and not AA … Err Chun is like the punish Queen, she can reversal a huge amount of characters attacks and moves…

Surely she has one of the best reversal games in the err game

That too, I didn’t even consider the 1-frame super and 7 frame 3/4s screen ultra

If reversals includes Super and Ultra then yeah, it should be around the 3 to 3.5 range.

Also, I think her Rush should be at 3. She can rush people down to the corner and in the corner with pokes/grab just fine. The only thing lacking for her is a decent mixup game on the ground (hence why I agree with the 2.5 in mixups)

Other than that, I agree with SnakeAes’ numbers.

and EX hazanshu is a weird reversal too, with a few iframes on its own to avoid very specific set ups

I just realized that I had the startup frame data for Hosenka and Kikosho reversed X_X

There aren’t a lot of situations where I can envision Chun utilizing reversal U1 except on wakeup if someone tries to fireball you on your wakeup. Sure, there are situations where you can Ultra through cr.MK xx Hado, but it’s not typically a reversal in those cases (at least for me it’s not, because I try to do it as late as I can to ensure they’ve committed to the fireball).

Super is an option I admit I overlooked, I didn’t think about it at all when considering reversals, I was solely thinking about Chun’s reversal potential using specials (EX Kikoken, EX Legs, EX SBK, EX Hazanshu), of which EX Legs is a situational reversal, EX Kikoken is almost never a good reversal, EX Hazanshu is wonky because of its movement. Her best special move reversal is EX SBK which gets stuffed at the wrong angles, is easy to punish when blocked, has slower startup than many other invincible reversals, and can’t be focus cancelled to make it safe.

I agree that including Super and Ultra, her reversal score should be higher… I disagree that it’s as high as 3.5 though, and I’m hesitant to even say that it’s a 3. Obviously her reversal potential is highest when she has Super, but she still has to build the super whereas plenty of other characters have strong reversals right out of the gate. Also, Chun can’t guess with Reversal Super. Ryu, for example, can guess with Reversal Shoryu all day long, as long as he has two bars of meter to cancel and make it safe.

In light of that I’ll change my reversal rating, but in my mind Chun’s reversal is at best a 2.

Reversal U1 beats the following (and these are the just the ones that I know offhand):
Honda headbutt (any)
Honda super
Honda ultra
Guile sweep (before second hit)
Blanka ball, ultra, super (reversal will hit; better off waiting for him to land and full animation punish)
Cody’s criminal upper (I think)
I’ve heard that it beats some of Adon’s Jaguar kicks/tooths, though I don’t know which.

Point is, reversal U1 is great as a reversal punish. Perhaps I’m misunderstanding you, because I’m pretty sure that I’m not telling you anything you didn’t already know here =P

Honda’s Super is -6 so it actually doesn’t work. I learned this the hard way lol.

Anyway, yes U1 is a great tool, but there are only a few situations where it MUST be a Reversal. Against certain Honda headbutts, you have to Reversal. Against certain specials from Cody, you have to Reversal.

But, my point is that in general, Chun’s reversal game is bad. Once she has U1 she can Reversal a lot of things. Once she has Super she can Reversal even more things. But until that point in the game Chun’s Reversal options are just not that good. Like I was saying, the only decent reversal is EX SBK which loses to a lot of things, can be safe jumped, and is easy to punish.

Compared to other characters who have strong reversals that don’t require full Super or Ultra, I just don’t see Chun being that high in Reversal score.


While I was revising this post I was struck with a realization that, to me, explains why we’re having this discussion to begin with.

I am talking about strictly Chun’s ability to use Reversals effectively in the game, while you guys are (I presume) talking about Chun’s ability to punish. In terms of punishment I agree, Chun has some of the best punishment tools in the game. But at least for me when I talk about a character’s reversal game, I mean their risk-reward when utilizing reversals. You guys are talking about Reversal U1 and Reversal Super as a punish, in which case there is almost no risk – as long as you react and execute at the right time, you usually know you’re going to punish something.

I agree; that’s what I was saying originally a few posts up. I’m with you on your confusion of the question too; I’m not exactly sure what we mean by “reversal”. As you said, if we’re talking ability to reversal punish, Chun’s good, but if we’re talking wakeup reversals, she’s pretty low.

0-5

Great discussion, guys, this is exactly the sort of talk I hoped this project would spark.

I think the line gets a bit blurry. But I do think that some consideration beyond reversals on her wake up needs to be factored.

What is punishing and what is a reversal needs to be pinned down. And how often she will generally have EX or Ultra stocked to use these moves.

I don’t mean to beat a dead horse, but…

I wasn’t just referring to wakeup reversals. I’m talking about any reversal, so long as it is not Super or Ultra.

Take Ryu’s Shoryuken for example. It starts up in 3f, has great invincibility on startup, costs no meter, and can be made safe with two meters. If you hit with it, you get a free combo into Ultra. You could GUESS with reversal Shoryu in a lot of situations and do just fine with it, especially if you have the meter to burn. In loose blockstrings, after blocked specials that are even marginally unsafe, etc. Reversal Shoryu has a lot of ways to be effective, both offensively and defensively.

Comparatively, Chun does not have this ability. EX SBK starts up in 6 frames (I think), doesn’t have full-body invincibility and can be stuffed, leaves a big punishment window, can’t be focus cancelled, and can’t combo into Ultra except in a select few circumstances. In situations where Ryu might guess with reversal shoryu and make it safe, Chun can’t make it safe because she has to commit, which makes the risk outweigh the reward in most cases… which is why we typically don’t see random EX SBK used in competitive play except to extend combos and to stop jumpins.

If you feel like that’s an unfair comparison (Shoryu vs. EX SBK), that’s exactly the point. Chun’s Reversals are so far overshadowed by other characters’ reversals that I don’t see her having higher than a 2 in Reversal score. Since 2.5 is average, I really do think Chun is slightly below average in this area.