Chun Li General Thread: Blue Jade

chun-li

#3861

I think I have a Karin issue. I am always scared at this MU. I am also not talking about poor Karins here, I am talking Super Diamond and above Karins.

I feel that if the Karin player have good footsies and can confirm (or seems like they can) her cr.MK then I am toast. I am still at a loss about how to deal with her V-skill in the neutral, it covers so much space and recovers fairly quickly. I can whiff punish her st.HK sometimes but not consistently enough and the sweep is rough. I despise having to use EX legs to punish it because I wanna keep my super so that I would have st. HP xx CA as a neutral conversion tool.

I can’t exploit her weaker anti air like I do with Mika cuz Chun jumping sucks and her walk speed means that she will walk under and punish my landing easily. Once I get in the corner, it is throw bait, reset and ggs to her. I try to not fall for the shimmy but taking the throw from her still deals high damage. That and her meaties are far too strong.

Fireballs from the mid range doesn’t seem to be worth the risk. I am honestly just at a loss but I feel that a lot of it is me being mentally defeated by this character in this MU. I look up at the replays and I can see where I fucked up but still, it feel like such an uphill battle every time I go through it.


#3862

I think I want Tenshokyaku now as an AA option lol. I’d like V-skill to be an AA in addition to what it does, but I was also thinking something that works like a legit AA DP, so I stop getting stuffed or these dumb trades or miss st. LK altogether and end up in a bad situation for trying to do the right thing. It just always feels like the opponent jumping is the path of least resistance for them because st. LK doesn’t hurt at all and to do an AA worth a damn, you usually need to not be recovering from another move as they jump.

I also desire something like all her other charge moves taking as much charge time as SBK (that means kikoken and EX SBK because EX SBK takes longer to charge for whatever reason). It would open up a lot more options in neutral and pressure.

-I like Chun’s new outfits with the altnernate outfit codes except for the “Training” one. It’s a bit too busy for me. It’s all right, but not a huge fan of that one compared to the others.


-Vs. Karin, Chun out-ranges her in the ground game, so I keep my distance and smack her if she either whiffs or tries to get in her ideal poking range. I still mix in fireballs as pokes a lot until she gives me a legit reason not to (her main options are to command dash -> shoulder or EX dash which are great, but can be intercepted with something like cr. MK, st. MK or B+HP).

Her v-skill doesn’t bother me much as I’m usually poking/fireballing her out of it or letting it whiff and punishing. It’s not plus on block either unless she’s setting it up meaty, so I don’t consider it that abusable. Ibuki’s v-skill is more elusive and better for counter poking and whatnot imo. You can also treat it like Balrog’s rush punch and neutral jump to beat it and get your punish/pressure on the way down.

-St. HP is your friend in this match, the only thing that really challenges it head on is her command dash -> shoulder. But I just stagger it and mix it in with other pokes, so it’s not predictable and I can intercept the shoulder with other moves like mentioned above. St. HP also punishes her sweep for free (you can also punish sweep with cr. LP xx special from very far away as an alternative to just EX legs).

-Super kills 95% of her v-trigger options on defense, so it’s good to hold onto it and leverage that if need be. If you don’t have it and she doesn’t have her super stocked in v-trigger, I’d still challenge her with jab to interrupt rekkas (because the one that beats that is not going to hurt much without super) or EX Legs to beat the back step option.

-Her st. HK is dumb. She’s almost never going to do it in a range where you can block and punish (but be ready to anyway). Don’t fall into that nonsense and whiff punish if you see it whiffed out of range. It’s dumb. It CCs and it’s gonna be the start of her v-trigger 90% of the time. It’s dumb.

-Vs. her frame trap pressure, if you notice she’s walking forward in these sequences with something like cr. MP (great button) you will need to challenge her with your 3f and convert that into LK SBK quickly, so she doesn’t bully you into taking white chip damage that will be added to her inevitable throw/shimmy attempt. It sucks, but you have to call it out so you’re not stuck on defense (this applies to any character who does shit like this like Kolin or Akuma). Do EX SBK to challenge stuff early on too when you won’t die for it. She has to know you’re willing to do stuff like that to force legit frame traps (will push her out farther on block and it’s your turn again) and bait (means you can steal the momentum back just by pressing a button or throwing). But if you never give her a reason to do those, she’ll just happily stagger her buttons until she converts into whatever damage she likes (because she’s one of the few characters that gets to choose how much damage she wants to do just by spending a bar or two).

-I’d definitely work on anti-shimmy with cr. MK confirmed into SBK. Karin players love to do it all day because their punish is so great, so call that out, clip those legs and turn it into your own knockdown pressure.

-I’d still throw in some jump-ins until she can prove she’s good at AAing lol. From my experience even high level Karin’s are just not used to it most of the time.


-I found out the other day that you can still prevent Dhalsim’s MK slide xx v-trigger from coming out if you v-reversal quickly (it’s a read on v-reversaling the slide and expecting him to cancel into v-trigger). If you do it after he cancels the slide then the flame will still come out and you have to come up with a way to get out of the flame (usually EX legs is the best option if you have it.


#3863

st.hp is great against karin but I also use st.hk nearly as much. It punishes V-skill and st.hk extremely hard, and can beat st.hk/st.mk in situations where st.hp would simply lose. st.hk is the best way to dissuade Karin from going for st.hk – other ways are fireballs or jump-ins but both are high risk.

Jump-ins can be risky because Karin gets a left/right mixup off of any of her anti air normals (note: one thing I’ve been wanting to try is jumping in with j.hp, it should be surprisingly much harder for Karin to anti air than j.hk), but otherwise you shouldn’t have your jumps consistently walked/dashed under – walk-unders are generally going to be slower than an anti air, so your jumps are either too predictable or poorly spaced. If you are very risk averse, you can also go for air legs in neutral occasionally instead of jumping, which goes above V-skill and st.hk, and nothing Karin throws out at that range will naturally anti air it. Neutral jumps are also great to punish V-skills, but don’t cover any other options; consider neutral jumping after establishing a fireball game, otherwise I would only do so very sparingly. [Note: one thing I didn’t like about neutral jumping was that Karins were often just walking up and st.lp’ing, or even worse, V-skill anti airing… but using j.hp instead of nj.hk may make this more successful.]

If she is trying to fish with cr.mk constantly in neutral, then be prepared to f+hk after blocking (might have to walk back a bit to space it). Used properly it can really discourage cr.mk as it gives you a legit potential mixup every time you block it and the fact that Karin cr.mk is -4 means the risk/reward is hugely against her favor to try to interrupt it. Karin sweep shouldn’t really give you any more problems than any other sweep – it’s punishable with normals at 99% of spacings – although Chun is admittedly kind of sweep-prone in general particularly if you are throwing out a lot of st.hks like I do.

I personally will pretty much never tech a throw against Karin. I hate teching in general, but it’s especially bad against Karin because her throw baits are fantastic even on block (st.hp on block into a mixup). It’s usually okay to take throws (or backdash – you won’t get combod by st.lk, cr.mp frame trap) mid-screen, as everyone pretty much knows by now, but in the corner there’s a pretty high chance of dying no matter what. If I have a read on a corner throw, my preferred option is to jump out; you can really abuse her weak anti airs here because at that spacing it’s very hard to anti air, she can’t easily cover both fwd jump and wall jump at the same time, and wall jump can make EX Ressenha whiff. EX SBK is good too, because while it is punished by the same things as a throw tech, it’s a lot more rewarding since it allows you to actually escape the corner. Another option is to walk up and back throw. Karin’s throw in the corner sets up an unmoving shimmy so Karin players will generally not walk back, and walk-up throw covers both that throw bait as well as techs a throw. Delayed wakeup buttons are also an option, although that still loses to meaty throw.

Misc stuff: You really shouldn’t be VT cancelling off of anything other than st.hp (or b+mp which I don’t do cause its hard), can also cancel off of fireball/legs (although you should only do those cancels on hit – really need to get mileage out of your VT pop in this matchup) but st.hp is by far the best to fish with. cr.mp may even be worse than useless as a VT cancel since not only does it not go under anything, it also loses handily to V-skill, cr.mk, st.hk, and jump-ins, pretty much everything that gives Chun problems here.
Karin will never meaty with a low, so if you are okay with not being able to threaten EX SBK you can wakeup and walk back and it’ll allow you to pretty much get out scot free if she goes for a shimmy, or (advanced) at least build up some space if she goes for a delayed normal.
Also one thing MOV does a lot in this matchup is counterpoke with cr.lk, which should catch V-skill and random shoulders pretty handily. Haven’t experimented with it myself but it seems solid, even if you don’t confirm.


#3864

People are speculating that she might be getting moves like hazanshu and tenshokyaku from the voice clips in X-kira’s video. It’s a possibility, but I won’t get my hopes up here. The voice clips also have her saying “Hoenbu”… which is the spinning kick in the air from the first trailer that got removed (one of the reasons why I don’t get my hopes up). Another voice clip has her calling out “Shichisei Senkuu Kyaku”, which is this move here:

You can hear the voice clips yourself here (at 6:22 if the timestamp doesn’t work):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z53OGF-Dd1w&feature=youtu.be&t=6m22s


#3865

Here’s a demonstration of how kikosho will work in AE. Looks like Chun can perform it up to 4 times before she runs out of trigger. Damage is piss poor, but if it’s fast, safe on block, and can be canceled into maybe it will be a good pressure tool. Hopefully we’ll be able to cancel it into super as well, but I doubt it.


#3866

http://www.capcom-unity.com/strumslinger/blog/2017/12/07/complete-list-of-v-trigger-iis-in-street-fighter-v-arcade-edition
We get an explanation for her kikosho. tbh it doesn’t seem that useful but in practice maybe it will be different? I’m being too optimistic. Perhaps it can work well depending on the changes she gets the next season.


#3867

#3868

It’ll probably be like a short range version of Ryu’s VT1 then. There will most likely be some post-knockdown guard break setups. Maybe slightly more damage than his VT fireball if you combo into the uncharged version of Kikosho. Guard break damage is traditionally heavily scaled in this game, so I’m not sure how much damage she’s expected to crank out from it compared to other characters with a guard break.

Honestly, still not that excited about it over her original v-trigger, but at least the guard break property gives it something unique a makes it more interesting than “same ol’ Kikosho” from past games.


#3869

Unless they give her a good V Skill and crush counters that are relevant, it’s not going to be worth using. You have characters with 2 and 3 bar VT’s that are just as good or possibly better and have much better V Skills and CC’s for building gauge with. That V Trigger without changes to her gauge game is basically going to be a “block with your face then try to come back” trigger. Which if that’s the case then you might as well just run to Rog or Urien and hope their VT1’s are exactly the same.

That’s the big problem with her VT1 already is that it’s already a 2 bar trigger that you have to work harder to earn than other 2 bar or even 3 bar triggers. Which it got nerfed on top of that for the most part.

Not really concerned with her triggers until I see real changes that will augment them.


#3870

From a character standpoint, I am a little disappointed that her Kikosho, one of her most powerful moves, is used as a “comeback mechanic” rather than a finisher, like a 2nd Critical Art.

I’m still excited to learn and master her new technique though.


#3871

I don’t know how useful it will be, but this version of Kikosho feels kinda lame to me (opponent falls like a feather in front of her lol). Something’s off with it (small, quick, and feels weak)… the original design of the move doesn’t suit this very well, I guess…
I’m still curious though.


#3872

Yeah, and from that poorly showcased stream on Monday, it didn’t look like V-Skill really changed at all.


#3873

- Chun-Li’s SF: AE Move List -

It looks like, aside from the addition of Kikosho, nothing’s changed or added


#3874

Wish there was another VS. It would be nice to have something with more utility throughout the match than something you may or may not get once a match.


#3875

Chun-li getting buffed.


#3876

I’m glad they found a middle ground for her air legs as well as giving her some damage back. I wonder what kind of cc effect her f.hk has. probably spin though


#3877

I hope it’s spin and not pop-up so at least throw bait F+HK will still allow the standard meterless bnb afterward.


#3878

It’s spin state. You can see it in the footage of Ricki playing her. Chun PSX AE footage starts at around 44:23 You can see her f hk crush counter around 44:41. See some Kikosho VT2 confrims too in the minute footage of Ricki playing. Link below


#3879

F hk CC is pretty solid. Nothing amazing but good start and finally gives her a relevant way to build v gauge. There was no way she could have a 3 bar trigger without that at the minimum. New IALL options is cool.

Nerfs to other characters will be her biggest buff


#3880

you can juggle after kikosho. Interesting