Chun Li vs. Makoto in Japan

Kalypso tried to start something similar off; unfortunately is was erased as I tried to post this response. I think my point adds to discussion here and as suchI hope this thread doesn’t get erased!

People say that Chun Li is now the “third best” character in Japan and lower than Makoto. This probably has little to do with new skills and strategies discovered by Makoto and more to do with how familiar people are at playing against Chun.

The thing about Third Strike is that the more you play against a character, the worse the character gets in a sense because the easier that character gets to parry. How many times have you guys downloaded a video where Chun Li does SAII when a character has no life left, the character parrys the entire super art and then finishes her off? (I’ve seen at least three videos of that happening.)

More so than something being discoved about Makoto, people are probably just so used to fighting Chun that they can parry her really well now. That’s what happens when 30% of the people you fight at a tournament happen to be the same character–people learn the timing to parry their shit. It would seem impossible to parry the entire SAII (as opposed to just the last kick) when the game first came out but now people are used to it.

And think of how many times someone must have played against Chun just so they learn to expertly parry against chip damage like that… It really shows how well people know Chun in this day and age…

I know that tiers exist; but in third strike, the “parry” comand may actually change tiers over the long term. When a top tier character gets overpicked and becomes easier to parry, they loose their “on paper” advantages. Ken might be the best “on paper” but he is the most popular characters and thus easier to parry.

All you guys looking at the Japanese tiers should really ask yourself questions such as are you ever going to learn how to parry Chun Li’s entire SAII before you take them really seriously.

You used the term “parry” in all the wrongs places there, I thought. The thing about 3S is that a 50/50 or 33/33/33 mixup doesn’t become easier to parry when it happens more often because it’s always based on reaction and good guessing which isn’t something that you just “get used to.” Characters becoming more predictable because of popularity (like Ken) isn’t the same thing as being easier to parry. And I’m guessing all tier lists don’t take parrying into consideration anyway, so no, it doesn’t change the tiers at all. It just leaves a margin for different results.

In short… it hasn’t become a better idea to parry against Ken or Chun just because we’ve played them more than other characters. The reason why they’re predictable is because we’ve seen their best tools used several times and therefore can react more appropriately. That has very little to do with parrying. b+HP/c.MK/kara throw is one of the best mixups in 3S; it doesn’t get “worse” when you get hit by it a million times. Same with Ken’s mixups; in both cases the answer is usually not to parry.

And parrying Chun’s super is just a common thing that we have to know now, because it’s damn good at chipping people. I don’t think that’s related to the predictability of the character at all. If you’re saying Chun’s not as good because more people can parry an attempted chip super, you’re insane.

(There’s no guarantee that this post made sense)

Yun, Chun, and Ken have been around and sort of predictable for a long time, but that’s never stopped them from being amazing. They’re top cos they’ve got the tools. People are just finally discovering that Makoto has what it takes, also. A 100% stun damage combo on top of her rad mixup games will never be anything to scoff at, no matter how predictable it might be. In high level play (or better yet, ANY kind of play), it’s not a matter of being unpredictable all the time. You KNOW what Chun-Li’s going to do. You KNOW what Ken’s going to do. You know what most of your opponents want to do. The real problem is stopping it. I think it goes without saying that if you could C. Mk hit confirm into Gigas Breaker, Hugo would probably be top tier also, but it’s very hard to land Gigas Breaker; that’s one of the many reasons why he ISN’T top tier.

So yeah. Predictability, while you can mask it to an extent, will never be a deciding factor in the tiers. What decides it is what a character can do, how likely they are to be able to do it (and how easily), and whether or not you can easily prevent it.

The thing is, with Makoto’s throw game (as mentioned in Aneurism X’s tier thread), you can’t just predict and parry with her; you have to take a risk because she might rush in and go into a combo off of a throw. With Chun Li, you can sit and wait for an opportunity to parry because she can’t just stun you off of one throw.

“So yeah. Predictability, while you can mask it to an extent, will never be a deciding factor in the tiers.”

Well, how else do you explain Chun Li’s and Ken’s fall in Japan?

Also, it should be noted that I’m not talking about all around predictability, just predictability off of things you can parry. Makoto’s stun combo might have been around for a while, but as people get better at parrying, maybe that makes her relatively more valuable as a character, since you can’t parry her stun combos…

That’s probably why Japan’s tiers appear to be the way they do, because people are so good at parrying and that changes things. My point is that if that’s the case, we shouldn’t take their tiers too seriously unless we also are willing to get our parrying up to that level.

“In short… it hasn’t become a better idea to parry against Ken or Chun just because we’ve played them more than other characters. The reason why they’re predictable is because we’ve seen their best tools used several times and therefore can react more appropriately.”

I think you are probably more correct in this assessment than I was. It’s just that whenever I see someone parry super-art II I think damn, who would play that game for so long against Chun Li that they figure out how to parry something like that just to save some chip damage. In stark contrast, no one would ever bother figuring how to parry Elena’s SAs because no one picks her. You are right, people can now just react more appropriately to Chun but it’s like, damn, that’s a lot of practice just to eliminate a “chip” damage advantage against Chun Li.

Like Skankin said, the quality of the tools of each character and their application, how hard it is to prevent those tools from being used, and how those tools integrate into the game against the other characters is what dictates the tiers. Those qualities never become outdated regardless of predictability. Parrying is a universal tool throughout the cast and therefore can’t be considered.

And if people were as reliant on parrying as you imply, characters with command grabs would be much better, even though they all suck except for the brothers and Makoto. Makoto has better tools that complement her grab unlike Alex, Q, and Hugo. And parrying skill is formed from basic principles of rhythm and timing, as well as experience with the game. It doesn’t require that much practice against Chun specifically. At least I never felt it did.

The main problem is that I think you’re misinterpreting how parrying is applied, and how much risk there is. Against Chun or Ken you can’t just “wait for a parry” because there is always more than one option for them; in fact, there’s always more than one option for every character. Guess wrong = damage. A command grab just adds another dimension against your defense but clearly, Ken and Chun will never need that.

Edit: Consider this; if predictability affected tiers, would Ken be anywhere close to the top 3? What do you think is keeping him up there? I read a post once that said a Japanese player mentioned that there aren’t as many Kens in Japan because he became “predictable.” With that in mind, he’s still in the top 4 and always will be because of what I’ve tried to outline in my posts.

Do you even play 3s? Last I checked, Chun Li does damage by hit confirming her super, not by throwing her super out at random.

You hit the nail right on the head right here.

I honestly believe this is why the tiers changed. Someone mentioned before that Urien dropped in tiers because people are just wise to beating his bullshit (parrying out of shield unblockables and the like), and why powerful characters with low defense are rising in the tiers (Akuma, Yang).

Unfortunately I know where this thread is ultimately going. We’ll have ten idiots coming in just proclaiming Makoto random tier, blah blah.

I’ll answer them before they start just to make them happy: Yes, the best 3s player in the US Pyrolee and the entire country of Japan are wrong, they are stupid. You, the SRK member who sucks at the game, are completely right. Makoto is just a random bitch who sucks, and Chun li is better than Yun :rollseyes:

For the sake of the argument, let’s pretend that parrying didn’t exist. I’m not too aware of Japan/U.S. Tier lists so I will assume that the suggestion of Top 4 are: Yun, Chun-Li, Ken & Makoto (in no particular order). It’s not odd that Makoto would be placed in this list no matter which side it is (Japan or U.S.) because of all the available “tools” given to each character as stated before. Makoto’s are quite superior in terms of their usage within an actual match.

Perhaps Yun’s asset that places him in “Top Tier” would be the Genei-Jin, Chun-Li’s would be her ridiculous priority on her normals and ease of use, Ken’s would be his overall balance in speed, power, priority, stamina and his ability to link off so many various pokes plus he’s somewhat easy to use also. But in Makoto’s case, learning to use this character alone is quite difficult, especially since there aren’t enough examples on how to use her compared to other characters like matches, vids etc. (Yun has one of the highest learning curves, but many examples have been shown on how to use him effectively in different playing styles ex. K.O., Pyrolee, Mester).

Her strengths lie in her mix-up and stun game. J and Sextaro (I think those are the names) are very good Makoto players and have been able to unlock some various “secrets” and overall tactics, and are paving the way showing how to use Makoto (of course there are other players, but I’m not too farmiliar with tourney players so insert names here :tup: ). As time goes on, a “standard” playing style, in which all of these “tools” being used will be created, she will become more and more used and her Tier position will no doubt be re-evaluated again, perhaps opening the door for another “undiscovered” character to go under the microscope for Tier evaluation.

The end result is that as long as people are playing 3S, high-level play will always be redefined and Tier placements will change slightly. Who knows, maybe one day a character like Ibuki may rise in the tier list a little. I think she is a pretty underrated character myself…

Too bad you’re right…

“[Parrying] doesn’t require that much practice against Chun specifically. At least I never felt it did.”

Yeah but when you get to the point that you can time the parry on SAII (as happens all the time in Japanese vids), parrying against Chun gets a little ridiculous.

The Japanese know the timing for stuff like that (as well as a lot of chun li’s double punches) becuase they play that match a million times…

Gaijen, as strange as it sounds, I more or less agree with you. I know that Japan has their own tiers now, but when I see the matches on video, and I see crazy stuff like Chun’s entire SAII being consistently parried, I start to wonder how applicable the thoughts of top Japanese players are to regulars here. (Unless you happen to be one of those super hardcore guys that practices all day and goes on trips to Japan just to learn new tactics and such.)

“The main problem is that I think you’re misinterpreting how parrying is applied, and how much risk there is. Against Chun or Ken you can’t just “wait for a parry” because there is always more than one option for them; in fact, there’s always more than one option for every character. Guess wrong = damage.”

Yeah, but there isn’t as much pressure on you to attack or run as their is when fighting Makoto. Even if you can’t parry Ken and Chun at every second, blocking is a good option against them. Makoto OTOH can rush in and throw. So you can’t even pace the match to the point where you can see an opening to parry.

And again, I agree with you. Most people won’t become good enough at parrying for this to matter anyway. I just think that’s why the Japanese tiers may be changing…

You just try to block/tech everytime vs a Chun who is karathrow range away from you, but can also do

You just try to block/tech everytime vs a Chun who is karathrow range away from you, but can also do

It’s all relative though. Trying to use that same tactic against Makoto would result in a grab plus stun and way more damage. Sure, Chun Li can Kara throw but for what, chip damage?

And again, I’m nowhere near the level where I can parry that shit consistently… However, the Japanese are and that probably arbitrarily makes her fall a bit on their tiers.

This is incorrect. If ‘knowing what a character is going to do’ made them fall in the tiers, RoboKy and Slayer would be bottom tier in GGXX#R. And when I’m playing a Chun, I /know/ the options my opponet has, but I have to /guess/ which one they’re going to pick. Chun, at the right range, can kara-throw, go low, or UOH. The last two comboing into supers, and it’s not possible to tech/block/parry everything all the time.

You guys are more or less right. So let me modify what I’m saying a bit.

As players get better at parrying in general, a character like Makoto may rise in ranks because you can’t parry her command throw which leads stun combos.

However, if you are not at the level of parrying that the Japanese are at, that is pretty irrelevant.

All i have say about this thread is

Watch “J” play Makoto and then come back and tell me what you think

I think you make a pretty good point about Makoto’s throw and the like, but I still don’t agree that Chun or Ken have exactly dropped any; I think it’s completely feasible that two characters can maintain their potential, while the rest of the world figures out that a second tier (already debated top tier) character simply has more potential than those two. And, I think that’s exactly what happened.

ofcourse, makoto is high tier because of her grab, but there’s always a risk involved, and when she misses her grab because someone jumps, dashes back, perhaps even hit in the startup. Sure ‘when’ she grabs she can stun you given she’s in the corner, but it doesn’t happen every time.

And the Japanese can’t parry everything, look at KO vs Nuki SBO3 finals. He blocks almost everything, just because he can’t tell if Nuki is going high or low.

I understand the idea behind that comment, but “knowing” or guessing correctly on parries based on how the individual player will play the character doesn’t help the justification of tiering. You can play good Chuns and bad Chuns, in the end Chun-Li remains a top tier character. The question is why, and what advantages does she have that makes her so high up on the list. Maybe parrying doesn’t fit into a discussion on tiering only because it’s not really an advantage of disadvantage for any character, it’s a strength/weakness of the player.

More often than not it’s about how the better players know when and more importantly, when not to parry and just block. Especially when you get knocked on the ground. Blocking is more important in such a situation since the opponent will be able to start a move before you do. Makoto supposedly is above Chun Li now in Japan because she can do 100 percent stun combos to any character in the game. The threat of pretty much losing the match after making one mistake is just too much to not have her above Chun. Plus her poking game is strong enough to content with the majority of the characters in the game. Her j.MK is hard to beat in the air.

Parrying is pretty much half the reason that the lower tiered characters do as well as they do in the game. High priority pokes from the high tiers don’t dominate them like they would in other games because of the player’s ability to negate a poke with a well timed parry. That of course doesn’t mean Necro will have an easy time dealing with Chun’s pokes but he has more of a chance of offsetting her pokes with a parry than he would without the parrying system.

someone mentioned akuma back there. only dirty mexicans (don’t take me as racist. I am of mexican background) and people who can’t parry for shit play akuma. they can only win if they spam you with all kinds of shit and things that only work for idiots playing 3s. Theres a reason why ibuki and akuma (or anyone who takes tons of damage) will never be top tier, and thats because you find 1 opening, and they have a 50% chance of losing already on a perfectly executed combo, and they have a mixup waiting for them on the wakeup.
You notice most of those players spam rh hurricane kicks and air fireballs.
we were talking abotu top tiers here, guys. don’t bring in rediculous shit like akuma or ibuki in the convo simply because they require too much work to win and not much too work to beat. I don’t care how much you may say you parry like a champ. No, akuma’s hit stun recovery isn’t a factor either. you notice players scrub a DP when they know you can link your mixups.
anyway, [/endrant]