Claw cheap: and Dictator?


#1

YuuVega is considered one of the best, if not just the best Dictator player in the world.

In Japan Claw is - rightly imho - social banned and even great tournament players don’t get too much credit winning while using him.

The reason is its unpredictable and powerful air move.

But now let’s consider Dictator’s Devil Reverse (charge down, up , punch, punch). This move is fast, powerful and, as well as Claw air dive, equally unpredictable.

The Devil Reverse attack is an essential move that every advanced Dictator player has to master in order to win against other top level gamers.

Besides that move, Dictator has one of the best throw priority in St. And his throws are almost impossible to tech.

Claw is considered cheap: why Dictator isn’t?


#2

The amount of control and skill needed to properly use the DR is tremendously higher than the Dive. [Using the Dive is pretty robotic and brainless using the DR is not.]

Or in other words the risk (difficulty)/reward is so much lower in using the DR [compared to the dive.*]

But in quick summary the DR is [not as good as the dive for the folling reasons*]:

  • Doesn’t knock down.
  • Can glitch out and just “fly over” the opponent.
  • Easier to counter.
  • Does less damage.
  • Slower.
  • Can’t mix in a throw that does 24% of your life bar damage. (Or a super that does 49%).

[*edits]


#3

I think you have missed the point of my rethorical question.

Obviously Claw and Dictator aren’t the same character. And obviously their moves are different. Claw wall dive is better than Dictator Devil Reverse and it’s one of the best move in St. Claw’s move can hit normal, in reverse or can lead to a throw. Devil Reverse strategy is more difficult to master than Claw dive one.

But Claw and Dictator moves share the “same” conception: air moves very complicated to interpret within a fraction of a second.

When the player has the certainty of how to block or counter those moves, often he find himself already hit.

Despite their moves similarities, Dictator players are accepted by the community, while Claw players are strongly rejected.


#4

You asked:

My answer:

I answered your question and provided several examples and properties why to support my statement.

You then wrote:

Which leads me to believe and think 2 things.

  1. I need to better express my point: :karate: (Which is fair, it wouldn’t be the first time…)

Claw is consider cheap becasue the Wall dive is SO much more powerful and easy to use compared to the DR. It takes SO much more effort to use the DR. (See prior post: This answers your question.)

  1. You need to play the two characters more, and you will easly answer your own question. :tup:

#5

On top of all that was previously stated, the lack of any kind of non super reversal for dictator makes every potential knockdown against him infinitely more dangerous. >.>


#6

This topic makes my brain bleed, and it’s O. Sagat that’s soft banned.


#7

Cheap? Where is that at? http://www-cheap.com/


#8

I simply hate Claw, he beats ALL my normals and some of my special moves!!, he have a LOT of priority in the majority of his moves :arazz: and i play with a lot of scrub claws, that the only thing that they do is c.hk and i think c.mp or s.mp (i dont know), wall dive is not so tricky, you can beat it whit jumping jab or short (depending of your character).

Claw is the cheapest char so far :zzz: i prefeer o.sagat players :rofl:


#9

You preffer the symphony of TIGER, TIGER, TIGER, TIGER! to Yuuuuuuuuuu!<slash sound> Yuuuuuuuuuu! <slash sound>?


#10

u cant really say a character is cheap. claw in my opinion is fairly easy to predict after u play him a couple times. also if the claw player is just doing his dive attack he is stupid =\ there is a bigger and more advance play to him than that. just google “claw ssf2t” and u will find a couple of examples.


#11

once you figure out how to deal with him, he’s easy…

I tried to claw dive all day, but this blanka player countered everything…

Also the O.Ken, I couldn’t do anything…


#12

A rhetorical question is not a true question. Sorry, but you are still missing the meaning of my post.

In my opinion, the “small” technical difference - especially (but not exclusively) considering the overall skills level of top players - for mastering two similar moves doesn’t justify the fact that Dictator players are considered tech gods while Claw players that use the same Dictator air unpredictable strategies are treated as “cheap”.

This is demonstrated by the facts. Yuu Vega? One of the best St player in the whole world. Tokido? A cheap player, even when he beats top gamers or wins tournaments.


#13

yeah but dr is not as effective as wall dive and is more prone to miss.


#14

And how many Dictator players have YOU seen use DR like the fucking wall dive constantly? Thought so, close this stupid ass thread.


#15

lol comparing the DR and the wall dive is completely nuts… I mean it’s so obvious to my eyes that the DR is nowhere near as powerful as the wall dive that I don’t feel like argumenting.


#16

Sigh… here we go…

I answered your question respectfully, made everything easy, and playful. I get the sense you are trying to turn this in to a pissing contest. :wtf: If that is the case take that to another forum… Even though we have all been guilty of it. People try very hard to keep that BS out of this forum.

You did not ask a rhetorical queation. Please review what a rhetorical question is, and then please show me in your first post where you asked the “rhetorical question.”

Washington State University: http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/rhetorical.html
Brigham Young University: http://rhetoric.byu.edu/figures/R/rhetorical%20
Dictionary.com: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rhetorical%20questionquestions.htm

Please show me where you asked your rhetorical question in your first post…You asked, at least by my interpretation, why Dictator isn?t considered cheap. Your question could be interpreted as a rhetorical question if you made true statements and it was properly phrased.

This ^^^^ in not a Rhetorical question.

False statement… ^^^^^^

The DR is not equally as fast, or as powerfull as the wall dive. Not to mention it is no where as easy to use as wht Wall dive. Period. There is not point you can make to put those to moves in the same category. DR is a good move, the wall dive is godly.

Read my last post there are plenty of reasons to show why these moves are so different.

False Statement ^^^^^

There are 5 Charactars with greater throw range the Dic (Gief, Hawk, Honda, Blanka, Sim) and one character with an equall throw range than Dic (Boxer MP). That makes Dic. tied for the 6th best throw priority in the game. He is better than average, but certainly not one f the best. Over 30% of the cast has better throw priority (range).

Honestly, based off of what you have written, I do not believe you play either character in the game much. When reading your **red bolded **text above. I would like to restate that these moves are not similar. They may ‘look’ similar because they fly into the air attack you from above. There are more than just “small” technical differences. They are not very similar in application, function, property, and technical difficulty.

Your own post stated:

This is true. However, it does not take nearly as much for Claw to “master” and win using the wall dive.

Play both characters, and the differences will be obvious.:karate: Then you will see where your “rhetorical question” fails. (Even if it was properly asked)


#17

You can’t win evo with dr.


#18

Fatboy: as a competitive ST player, I must respectfully say that I think you have the wrong idea about Devil Reverse as a move. Though it is not as powerful as Claw’s wall dive, it is even less predictable in the hands of a moderately skilled Dic player, and is much more maneuverable. Devil Reverse is still quite strong, and though Dic may not have the best throw range, he still recovers from his specials, jumping, and light attacks on the ground faster than you recover from block or hit stun. With Devil Reverse, you have the choice of getting in close to your opponent or hitting him from afar, getting you set up for more blockstrings or throw traps.

On top of all this, Devil Reverse has much higher priority than Wall Dive. Just a better move, though it isn’t quite as fast going up.


#19

Absolutely not. And I wonder where in my quiet speech have you seen this kind of will.

I think you are using inapt tones. I wrote an opinion that I have argued. You can be in agreement or not but please avoid terms like “that bs”.

The thread is based on it: a question in which the writer who asks already knows the answer.

See it? As I said twice you don’t understand the sense of this thread.

It was. The point is that it was made in a subtle form and maybe you haven’t seen it.

After all I wrote in the first message, the rhetorical question was very clear.

“Claw is considered cheap: why Dictator isn’t?”. Translation: considering my previous statements, in my opinion it’s unfair that there is such a great difference on a reputation level between Claw and Dictator players.

The thread wasn’t about: Claw - and/or the person who uses him - is cheap or maybe not. Dictator - and/or his player - is cheap too or maybe not or maybe a little. But sadly almost everyone interpreted the thread in this wrong way.

The thread wasn’t about singular analysis of Claw or Dictator but it treated the relations between the two characters.

Therefore not an absolute judgment on one or other character, instead a much more complex relative analysis.

And where would I write this? I said, and you quoted too:

“This move is fast, powerful and, as well as Claw air dive, equally unpredictable.?”

“as well as Claw air dive, equally unpredictable”: then, I wasn’t talking about speed or power. Besides, are you denying that the Devil Reverse is unpredictable? That it can’t cause, likewise Claw move, the same interpretation problems at the delicate moment of blocking?
Then watch Yuu Vega and Taira videos: you will see that even godly players are often fooled and therefore hit by their Devil Reverse strategies.

Do you think that people like Arg or Tokido would have any kind of problems learning and then mastering the Devil Reverse as they master the wall dive?

They are both air moves that tend to mislead the opponent: they are in the same category.

And the 70% hasn’t. Therefore yes, I believe Dictator throw is one of the best in the game.

Very sad seeing that you cut the other part of my speech. I hope you won’t deny that Dictators throw is one of the most difficult to tech in St. Another great weapon then, besides priority.
And the mention of that in the first post wasn’t accidental: Claw dive can lead to a throw, Devil Reverse can’t. Obvious, again. But, as well as you have just written, Dictator throw priority is better than Claw’s one. Among the others setups, throws become a very useful option in the case the Devil Reverse is blocked. And let’s not forget the difficulty in teching Dictator’s throws (important thing that you don’t quote).

Presumptuous tones.

See above.

See above.


#20

Would this be considered a rhetorical question or a question question ?!?!?!?!?!?!

“If my balls were on your head, would I be on your mind ???” :rofl: