Cody's Rocks - An Alpha 3 Player's Perspective

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
#1

This post looks long, but I promise you it’s going somewhere constructive. Plus, there’s videos of some good Cody play if you stick around.

As a V-Cody main coming from A3, I think Cody’s got a lot of tools that are useful on a competitive level in SSF4, and I do think he’s got potential, but in terms of Cody’s zoning game, Capcom got one very important thing wrong. They don’t understand what his rocks were meant for and how they’re supposed to function. Where do I get the authority to speak on this? Well, I can’t offer any video credentials, but anyone who played a lot of tournament level Cody in Alpha will probably agree with me.

Rocks have very slow start-up, we all know this, but this was offset by one fact in A3: The rocks had a very high arc (especially the FP one), so they went up and over the opponents head. This meant that if they tried to jump once the rock start-up finished, they would jump directly into the rock no matter how close they were.

Now, Cody’s rocks in SSF4 actually recover fairly quickly and come out at around the same speed as they did in A3, so Capcom got that part right, but where they made their biggest mistake is in making the trajectory of the rocks almost straight like a fireball.

Cody’s rocks are not meant for covering horizontal space the way Ryu or Guile’s are. They’re way too slow to function like that because people can just jump the rocks when they see the start-up – even pretty late into it. With someone like Ryu or Sagat, you have to jump their fireballs IMMEDIATELY upon release, or you’ll get DPed, and, as a charge character, Guile’s recovers fast enough that he can s. FP, c. FP or air-to-air you before you get on top of him if you jump late. All their fireballs come out quick as well, so they cover them much better against ground attacks.

In short, the whole reason why the rocks had slow start-up in the first place was to balance the fact that it functioned like a long range preemptive anti-air. It put them into block stun safely from mid-range, giving him room to use his other tools like his ruffians. The slow start-up allowed an opponent to walk in and hit Cody on the ground (since it would go over their head) if they were close enough, but a good Cody player would be able to offset this by using his other tools to create space and allow him time to throw the rocks (at which point, they’d be forced to block them). The rocks themselves work to stop their approach and create frame traps from a distance.
The start-up also prevents Cody players from just doing them on reaction when they see a jump since they have to guess and do them early.


-The arc on the A3 rock (stops Rose’s jump cold from mid-range)(rock arcs over his head)

-The arc on the SSF4 rock, much more straight like a hadouken, easy to jump over on reaction even close up.

Some examples of how they worked in A3:

[media=youtube]ArQDkAqORBA&#t=0m28s[/media] (Sakura)
[media=youtube]Dcw17AgBf9M[/media] (Chun)
[media=youtube]oBFGgTAWP_Q[/media] (Ryu)
[media=youtube]PXg45LMdjtU&#t=2m20s[/media] (Zangief)

Watch how VER and Eipacchi (top Japanese Codys) keep Chun’ and others grounded at a distance with their rocks. VER uses the LP and fake rocks more against Chun’ because she walks fast enough to go under the FP rocks most of the time.
Notice how it’s hard for them to jump Cody’s rocks on reaction, and if they try, they usually get pushed back. This is how the rocks should work.
V-Cody’s rocks were even better because his dodge allowed him to go through a sonic boom or hadouken and then throw one of his own rocks back in retaliation (negating some of the disadvantage from the slow start-up). Not advocating that they put his dodge back in though - unless they added a guard meter for him, which would be interesting.

As they are now, rocks are only really good from full screen or when the opponent is at big frame disadvantage. In terms of actual zoning, they’re barely functional anymore from mid-screen even if they do recover or start-up a bit faster.

Bear in mind, this is not a thread I made to complain. This is a fundamental issue with the way one of his moves works. When a character is translated over from another game, the game designers need to understand what each move is meant to be used for and re-tool them accordingly to fit the new engine, but they totally missed the boat on his rocks. They probably thought they were doing him a favor by lowering the trajectory, but Cody’s rocks should be like his b. MP or s. FP moving across the screen; they shouldn’t function like a hadouken. They should travel in a curved arc that starts really high then falls down as the move progresses. You should be able to walk under the FP one if you’re close enough but not jump over it.

*(Another smaller but significant issue is that if you hold his rocks, there’s a pretty big delay before they get released when you let go of the button, which means you’re stuck guessing instead of reacting if you delay them. Fake rocks have a weird recovery at the end of them too, but they still work the way they should for the most part. No idea why they made the start-up on the fake rock slower than the normal rocks though.) *

This post is probably futile, but I’m at least putting this out there on the horribly slim chance that somebody might see it and do something about it in a patch or something. Some of you might say it’s only one move, but if you played him in A3, you’d realize how crucial it was to his game, and how much it could still help him now (especially in a zoning oriented game like SF4). I don’t care if Cody’s low or high tier, I just want his moves to work right. Ryu has his hadouken and shoryuken, which, together, form the backbone of his spacing game. With Cody, it should be his rocks and his ruffians.
As it is now, they don’t really compliment each other the way they did in A3. He can’t keep them from advancing past his ruffian range safely right now: that’s his biggest issue. That’s why you see most Codys so far playing a rushdown game to capitalize on his strong mix-up instead.

TL;DR - Rocks should go much higher up, making him vulnerable to dashes/walk-ins closer-up but not jump-ins from that range. This gives him room to frame trap and space with his ruffians.

Cody Changes for Rebalanced Arcade Edition
#2

The problem with your reasoning is that you forget SF4 doesn’t have airblock. Cody makes you BLOCK his rocks in the air in A3. No such thing in SF4. You can’t compare the two if the characters don’t have the same toolset to defend with.
Same reason they didn’t make denjin hadouken unblockable (no parries)

#3

Air block is beside the point. Even if it did 10 damage to jumping opponents, it would still achieve the objective of keeping them out. You also forget that SF4 has the dash and focus systems; you could just focus dash through them from a distance, so it’s not like it’d be some overpowered keep out tool.

Remember, if it arcs higher, then it also opens him up to other punishments. Characters like Makoto, Ken, Rose, Viper, Honda, Blanka, Rufus, Deejay, Guy, and even Cody himself, would have tools to get under a higher arc bad stone, while characters with projectiles could just fireball under it (like in A3 if the rocks are badly timed) and trade in their favor since rocks are low on damage but high on stun.

The only characters who’d have a really hard time with the A3-style rock would be grapplers like 'Gief and Hawk and maybe Hakan when he’s un-oiled.

If they truly felt it would be overpowered, which I strongly believe is untrue, then they should’ve tweaked the start-up to account for the new arc. Either you want a hadouken-style projectile with fast start-up that leaves you open to jumps, or you want one with slower start-up that covers a wider range above you but leaves you open to forward approaches. This gives you more room to work, assuming you have some good ground tools (ie. ruffian). I’m strongly in favor of the latter, since it’s more unique and synergizes better with his ruffians.

If you just leave him with an almost straight-moving projectile that has a ton of start-up, then it’s just a gimped fireball. Sure you can delay it to catch jumps, but you have to be way behind your ruffian ranges to do so, and from that distance, you’re not really doing much besides chipping them. You’re forcing them in maybe, but you can’t really set much up from that range. A good projectile is not just a keep-away tool, it’s something you can use to limit their options and create different traps/set-ups.

Chun’s is good because she can follow it in like a shield to balance its charge and slow speed, Ryu’s is good because of its quick release/recovery, which allows you to use it like a long range poke, etc.

#4

Since nobody’s really said anything, I just thought I’d add something to it before it drops off the first page.
The first post is a huge wall of text, so I want to condense my argument by explaining why shoto-style fireballs, and in particular, Ryu and Sagat’s are so good.

They’re fast moving, quick releasing projectiles that cover the entire ground part of the screen while they’re out, forcing your opponent to jump or block until it dissipates. To complement this, each of these characters (Ryu, Ken, Akuma, Sagat) have moves that take advantage of that and allow you to anti-air your opponent even at the very last second as the move recovery finishes (hence why it’s so hard to jump at Sagat). Guile also has a move like this with his flashkick, but even though it sucks balls in this game, he still has a great anti-air game because his boom comes out and recovers fast enough that he has enough time to use normals like s. FP and c. FP to stop jumps.

Cody’s SF4-style rocks don’t complement this style of fireball for two reasons:

  1. He doesn’t have a DP-style move with fast, invincible start-up. RH ruffian is good but if you try doing it late, you’re gonna get stuffed and punished hard.
    2)The slow start-up on the rocks means that they have tons of time to jump the rock on reaction after they see the start-up animation. This means that rocks do a lousy job of forcing and punishing jumps the way a hadouken would.

Rock fakes prevent this, but that means you’re spending half your time faking instead of playing footsies or frame trapping them with the stun from the rocks, and then they might walk/dash in and land a knockdown which would be very bad for you.

His rocks arced upwards in Alpha 3 because his ruffians are the ground equivalent of a DP. They come out fast enough to stuff any attempt to walk forward or backward almost instantly.
Cody’s rocks should cover the space above them and force them to walk in, which leaves them open to your ruffians. Shoto-style fireballs do the opposite and force them to jump in, so they can use their DP.

Ono’s team just didn’t understand WHY the original designers made the rocks the way they were. Changing the rock doesn’t just hurt his projectile game, it hurt his core ability to control horizontal/vertical space by limiting the way he can use his ruffians.

#5

I think no one really responded to this thread because it’s pretty pointless. Even if his rocks were identical to Alpha 3, his Ruffian Kicks (and Criminal Upper for that matter) are not, so the points you’re making about RKs stopping forward movement are pretty moot. LK and MK Ruffian are horribly unsafe on block, so if you’re throwing them out randomly as pokes, you’re losing.

Besides that, no air block, no guard gauge and countless other differences make this a much more complicated comparison then simply saying it’s the same character, because it’s two completely different games. It would be impossible to transfer certain characters’ playstyles (like Cody) because the game engine is just too different.

However, they managed to keep the spirit of the character intact by giving him a strong pressure/trapping game. In Alpha 3, he could trap with CU really effectively because it was advantage on block. In a game in the style of SF4, with this kind of engine, that kind of pressure would have been too strong, so they changed it to a style more fitting to the speed of the game by giving him t.MP and changing/adding some other important normals.

The overall play style is still similar, but this is SF4, not A3. Stop expecting to play Alpha 3 Cody in SF4. Just like people need to stop expecting to use their old 3S tactics with the 3S chars. They were given new tools to use in this new game. Adapt.

#6

LK ruffian is safe when done from max range, and rocks are supposed to put them in stun to make it easier to limit their movement and land safe ones. You’re supposed to use them to catch them as they walk back/forward anyway. Without the rocks to keep them on the ground and push them back, making it easier to space for ruffians and scout movement. I do think they added a bit too much range/start-up to it, so now it’s a bit harder to space for a safe one. But the EX one comes out ridiculously fast, so that helps a bit. MK ruffian is relatively unsafe even from max range, yes, but the whole idea is you only use it when they’re going to walk into it.

You use ruffians the same way you’d use something like Dictator’s slide. Top players like Kuma will use it from way within unsafe distance because they can scout them well. MK ruffian was actually less safe in A3, and that still didn’t stop it from being very useful. VER would use unsafe LK ruffians all the time because he’d catch them standing up and trying to move.

I keep hearing people say that Cody’s playstyle is similar to A3, but I don’t think that’s true, and before you say my opinion is moot, I think at least some of the top European A3 players would vouch for me when I say that I doubt anyone knows A3 Cody better than I do outside of Japan – as arrogant as that sounds. Yes, his normals are mostly intact along with his ruffians, but his rocks completely change the dynamics of a lot of his match-ups. Imagine if you changed Ryu’s hadouken so it functioned like Sakura’s charged hadou, but left everything else the same; that would fuck his ground game up pretty hard.

Cody wasn’t really built for mid-range footsies. He’s best when he’s up in their face or zoning them around LK ruffian range, and he can’t keep them there without his rocks. Some of his pokes aren’t bad, but think of how many characters outclass him in the poke/walk category. I mean, I thought his new s. MK looked pretty godly until I realized it has less range than Ryu’s c. MK if they’re standing up.

I have no idea why people think the old rocks would be broken in this game. I’m not even asking for them to do a lot of damage, and there are TONs of ground tools you could use to get past them that weren’t available in A3. It could do like jab damage, and I’d be alright with that. I don’t see people moaning about Gouken or Juri’s anti-air fireballs, and god knows how much trouble grapplers have with those.

The 3S characters play differently because the engine forces them to, not because they fundamentally changed anything about them. Dudley got some major range reductions on his pokes, and Makotos non-FP hayates push back more now, but other than that, their moves function more or less the way they did in 3S. The way Cody’s rocks are now, they’re pretty risky unless you’re standing out of jump range and that means either giving up a lot of space to use them right or trying to play without them, which only leaves you with his normals/ruffians.

I don’t mind adapting to changes if there’s some kind of benefit to the change. I don’t see any here, really.

#7

But doesn’t charging them and fake rocks make opponents not jump?

#8

Charging them only works from pretty far away, and there’s a sizable delay before it lets you release it, so you gotta guess more than react with those. Also risky because it gives them a lot of time to hit you.

Faking works, yes, but it’s still problematic because it doesn’t synergize as well with his ruffians. You can’t set-up ruffian traps as safely with these new rocks because trying to put them in block stun and push them back means leaving yourself open to jumps, and faking doesn’t do either of those things.

You might say, “Well, rocks do, and you could alternate back and forth.” That’s fine, but now you’re spending a lot more time just doing rocks and fakes to bait jumps. Ruffians end up taking more of a backseat, which means your opportunities for a knockdown dwindle considerably. And even then, that’s a pretty gimped zoning game compared to just about everyone else with a projectile. His higher arc rock gave him a unique zoning game, whereas now he’s just doing a watered down version of Ryu’s.

Besides, if his ruffians already cover long ranges along the ground, why does he need rocks that do the same thing? To say that they’re safer would be highly debatable, I think.
Fake bad stone also starts up slower than a normal rock (32 frames), and in total, you’re only shaving about 12-15 frames off your rock throw recovery, so it’s good, but don’t think you can just fake all you want. To put it into perspective, you could actually whiff 2 s. LKs or a s. MP and a s. LP in LESS time than it takes to fake one rock. Go try it in training if you don’t believe me. The animation is a lot longer than you think. This is not Ryu’s HDR fake we’re talking about here.

You need the rocks to keep them in block stun and push them back into safe ruffian range, while frustrating them into trying to walk/dash in to punish your attempts to throw them. When they do, that’s the perfect time to land knockdowns with ruffians. You can still use his SF4 rocks to do that to an extent, but not even half as often as you could in A3, and you have to give up way more space to do it.

#9

The thing is, LK Ruffian changed a lot more then you make it sound. Yes it can be safe from max range, but in Alpha 3, there was more leniency to that distance to be safe. It didn’t need to be perfectly max, just as long as you spaced it decently, so there was a lot more freedom to throw it out. That’s besides the point that like you acknowledge, the startup is significantly slower, and it goes farther, making the max range further away (and making it easier to react to). The EX RK is a little more similar to A3 LK RK in the sense that it’s a little more forgiving in terms of safe spacing, and while the distance it travels still hurts it, the speed definitely helps fix that.

Ok, so we’ve continued to establish how they were used in A3. The point still stands that this is not A3, and you need to change your expectations.

That’s a matter of opinion I guess, because in the matches that require it, I find Cody has a very strong zoning game, especially with the new Knife.

It’s not even about being broken. It’s about altering the character to fit with into the game engine better. Just from the changes between the two game’s engines, even if his moves were kept exactly the same, he would already be completely different, because of no air guard, guard meters, alpha counters, V-ism, etc, so I don’t even know what you expect here.

No. They’re actually extremely different, especially Ibuki which you didn’t even mention because I suspect you already recognize how significantly she was changed.

Yes, the rocks can be risky, that’s why he has the feint. Like I said, you don’t see the benefits because you’re not focusing on them, because you’re too busy mourning the changes to the rocks. I don’t know how else to say this to you, so I don’t know how much more I’ll respond to this thread: This isn’t A3. Change your expectations for how to play Cody.

#10

As someone who never played A3, the thread was a good read. I didn’t really see it as complaining either. That said, I think that if the rocks were as they were in A3, they may have ended up being too good.

If Cody throws a rock, what are you options?

  1. Jump: you get hit

  2. Focus dash: due to the rocks’ fast recovery and changed trajectory you are likely going to eat an RK unless you were close to full screen away

  3. Focus backdash: you have now given up position, which is exactly what Cody wanted

It really wouldn’t surprise me if they changed the trajectory to it’s current form after testing it and deeming it not fit for the game.

#11

Knife is too situational. Anything that you lose on hit is way too flimsy to rely on.

What I meant is that nothing has changed dramatically on a base level the way the rocks have. I don’t see Ibuki’s :qcb::k: suddenly becoming an anti-air move for instance.

While I take some of your points, I don’t see how there’s a benefit here. He already had the feint in A3, and it was actually a lot faster than it is now. His rocks are still somewhat usable; I never denied that, but I’m not really seeing anything about them that was actually made better. The only thing I can think of is that they’re such a liability now that faking them is more likely to get you an anti-air, and there’s something wrong with that statement if you ask me. The new rocks still function on their own to some extent; it’s just that they don’t add any new synergies to his other tools. Plus, he doesn’t have anything safe to push them back with anymore. I think that’s why most Cody players are focusing on rushdown instead, which is all well and good, but I can think of several other characters who have better tools for that (Dudley, Ibuki, Cammy, Rufus, Viper, etc).

If they had added some different properties to the rocks to account for the new trajectory, I might have been more welcoming of it. But they basically lowered the angle, and then left the start-up the same. They took away the properties that made it unique but didn’t add anything new to make up for that. The rocks don’t even go any further, so if you’re using anything but the FP one (that has the most recovery) now all you basically have is a hadouken that takes forever to start-up and doesn’t even cross the whole screen. The whole reason it didn’t cover the whole screen in the first place is because it stopped jumps, and the LP/MP versions were to make it harder for people to walk under it. There’s no reason why the range should be reduced on the other versions anymore.

The only thing it really has left that makes it different is a cute animation.

#12

Of course it’s not something you can rely on for every match, but it’s really strong in certain matches when you do get the chance to pick it up.

The 3S chars changed a lot in fact, I’d say they changed more then the A3 characters did.

You want dramatic changes? Here’s probably the best (but not even close to the only) example. Makoto’s non-EX Axe kicks. In 3S, the only version of the Axe Kick that stopped her upward momentum was the EX one. The regular did nothing to her jump arc. In SF4, they had to change this, because without parry, her high arcing jump and large dash would make it impossible for her to close distance on characters like Guile, or even Ryu. Giving her the ability to change her jump arc without needing meter allows her to maneuver over fireballs safely without giving the opponent a free anti air.

See? They changed one of her core moves to help her fit into the new game engine.

Other big changes that completely change the 3S characters:
Makoto:

  • Karakusa no longer auto-techs throws: Command grabs auto-teched throws in 3S. Have you heard how people complain that Makoto can be thrown out of “everything” she does now? This is the reason.

Dudley:

  • Overhead can link into normals, and he can link into s.HK: Dudley’s main hit confirms in 3S were c.LK c.LK xx Super and t.HK (overhead), Super. Without the same super mechanics in SF4, they had to give him completely new combos, or he would literally have none. Being able to do c.LK -> s.HK and t.HK -> c.LP is huge.
  • Sweep is now incredibly unsafe on block: In 3S, s.HK was +1 on block. This was because it was necessary for him to use this move to create the other half of his 50/50 game without meter. In SF4, he can do c.LK, c.LP, s.HK xx whatever for damage, so he doesn’t need it anymore.
  • Without Super, he can only get a combo off EX Backswing: Dudley’s other huge mixup tool was backswing blow, because it made his throw game so strong. Without the same super system, Backswing blow is almost useless in SF4.
  • j.HK does not knockdown air to air: Self explanatory. This used to be a great way to score a knockdown, and now it resets them across the screen instead.
    …there’s more, but I’ll stop there because they start getting less important after that.

Ibuki:
…I don’t even know where to begin she’s so changed from 3S

  • Kunais have gigantic hit/block stun now, so she can actually use them offensively to create combos or blockstrings with no gaps.
  • Completely changed her dash and command dash properties.
  • EX Overhead kicks now bounce Ibuki off over the opponent to the other side: This gives Ibuki a great way to escape the corner.
    …that’s already enough without me having to make this post any more unnecessarily long.

I never said there’s a benefit to the new rocks themselves. Clearly they were toned down from Alpha3, overall. What I’m saying is that while he was nerfed in some places, it’s because he was buffed in others, so you need to adjust your expectations of how to play Cody to appeal your playstyle to the benefits, instead of trying to force an Alpha3 playstyle that doesn’t make use of his best features. Not many characters in SF4 can pressure someone, and hit confirm their Ultra off a single counterhit spending no meter, etc.

#13

Most of the 3S changes you mentions are alterations to certain properties in terms of frame advantage/disadvantage or start-up/invulnerability frames. For example, Dudley’s f. RH is still an overhead that links into something else for big damage (doesn’t matter what it is); His c. RH is still a low than launches; j. RH still functions as an air-to-air and still has the same hitbox more or less; Ibuki could always use kunais for block strings, she just doesn’t need to burn EX to do it anymore.

Other changes you mention like the backswing blow are, like I said, changes due to the nature of the engine – nothing really to do with the move itself. Makoto’s karakusa suffered because it lost throw invulnerability, but it’s still meant as a command throw that grabs people off the ground; the developers didn’t suddenly make it an anti-air throw. What I mean is that I’m not seeing any huge changes to the actual underlying purpose of the move on the part of Capcom. They didn’t set out to change what the karakusa should be used for; it just sort of happened because they messed up some of the move properties.

So, it’s not like Cody’s rocks became less useful because of added start-up or recovery, they got hurt because they completely changed the purpose of the move, and my beef is that the new rocks don’t seem to have a particular function in mind other than being a long-range chip tool. Let’s use Ryu as an example, if you alter his hurricane, it’d be manageable because he doesn’t depend highly on it, but if you mess with his hadouken and change its function, then you’re messing with a fundamental part of what makes the character work.

Honestly, I don’t feel like Cody got any major buffs other than getting the zonk knuckle (great against some chars like Boxer, Ryu, Rose). It gives him an edge in a few match-ups that used to be harder for him, but other than that, I think the negative changes outweigh the positive ones. I’ve got a huge list of what are I feel are buffs VS nerfs that I could post, but I’ll avoid doing so unless you really want me to.

Most of the buffs he was given were to things that he already did well in A3 (anti-air, mix-up, pressure), and the nerfs were to areas that he needed more like keep out, trapping and zoning. Frankly, I think he could’ve used the latter a lot more in a game like SSF4. What bothers me more is that I’m not even entirely sure if they entirely understood what the rocks were used for in the first game. Otherwise, I think they would’ve re-worked the move a little more like they did with Makoto’s axe kicks. I think they just figured that the old rocks angled too high to clash properly with other projectiles or something.

A good character’s moves are designed to work in tandem and to complement each other. Imagine if Fei Long had no anti-air; how would he keep people on the ground to deal with his rekkas? Cody’s ruffians aren’t anywhere near as safe as Fei’s rekkas, so he needs something else to keep them grounded and at a distance on a more consistent basis. Without that tool, you’re changing the way the character works, and I don’t feel like they did enough to really confidently push the character in a new direction. If he doesn’t have strong keepout anymore then why doesn’t he have more tools to get in?

And I’m not saying I think Cody is weak, but I think he had the potential to be a lot more than he is now.

#14

First off, just to clarify: Makoto’s Karakusa was never throw invincible in 3S. It auto-teched throws. Big difference, which is actually something I think should have absolutely been kept, and we even know it’s possible in the SF4 engine because Hakan has the auto-tech property on his oiled t.HK.

You’re right that most of the changes were to hit advantage/disadvantage, but some of them are core comparable to Bad Stone, like Ibuki’s Kunai and Makoto’s Axe Kick. The way they changes these moves literally completely changes the way these characters do what they do. Even with EX Kuani, in 3S, Ibuki could not do anything she does in SF4 with Kunais. And technically, Makoto didn’t have a “pressure” game in 3S, it was simply a strong a mixup game, where now, she has a pressure game equal in power to her mixup game (which has actually been toned down).

We don’t really need to argue this point back and forth though, as it’s kind of a tangent, I just don’t like the idea that you feel that Cody is the only character that was ported from another game and had his play style fundamentally changed. He might be changed a little more then Makoto and Ibuki, but I think even that is debatable.

I definitely understand what you’re saying about the Rocks, and I can agree that the change changed his playstyle. But again, you say you don’t feel he got comparable buffs to that nerf. It’s subjective, and I’ve already stated my opinion on that, so it seems pointless to keep going back and forth about whether he did or didn’t get enough buffs to justify the Rock nerf.

#15

Well done kyokuji, i’m glad somebody finally mentioned something about his rocks, i completely agree with you 100%, i would also go so far as to say that his rocks are very close to being totally useless, seriously have you ever seen anyone using in Cody matches?

They are so easy to jump over and punish
they are useless in a fireball war
and the fakes one are just lucky gimmicks if they land

you cannot have a character move this slow and not have a proper zoning tool, i agree that having no air blocks can cause problems but im sure they can work around it, it is an essential part of his game style.

look, lets not split hairs HunterSFL, the fact of the matter is Cody sucks, there’s a lot of problems with him, and his rocks are one of the main ones.

#16

This thread was already completely debated to its logical conclusion a month ago. Why you would bring it back to the front page without adding anything constructive is beyond me. When Kyokuji made this thread, he was actually starting an interesting discussion and had valid points that backed up his argument that could be debated. Your post is nothing but useless complaining.

So you’re right, let’s not “split hairs.” Here’s a solution for you: if you think Cody sucks, either don’t play him or stop whining. If you’re going to do neither, keep your opinions to yourself, because the last place you should make a post that amounts to “Wahhh, Cody is so bad…I can’t figure out how to apply his tools so they’re obviously useless” is the Cody forum.

#17

You think his rocks are basically useless? Ummm…okay, lol. That’s about as silly as saying Sakura’s fireball is useless because of the distance.

And yes, I have seen Cody players using the rock in matches. It’s an excellent zoning tool that pretty much every good Cody I know of uses to keep pressure on their opponent while they try to find an opening in order to get that knockdown. Let me touch on a few things though.

  1. They are so easy to jump over and punish

And this is any different from jumping over Ryu’s fireball how exactly? If you’re getting punished by throwing rocks, you need to work on your timing. Of course you can’t just sit back full screen all day and expect to go, “HA HA!” without any repercussions. This isn’t a problem with Cody, it’s a problem with your timing.

  1. they are useless in a fireball war

Once again, wrong. I was actually in a, “fireball war” with a good Guile player last night I play on a regular basis and he was alternating between MP, LP, and HP Sonic Booms. Eventually, I ended up making him have to jump cause my rock caught up with his SB. Granted, you’re not going to win in these types of battles, but I do it because it’s a great way to build meter (aside from just focusing it) and neutral jump when necessary, then go back to neutral.

So yeah…if you want a character that is going to win a fireball war or whatever, pick Sagat. However, Cody’s rocks are far from useless if used properly.

  1. and the fakes one are just lucky gimmicks if they land

Now you’re just starting to sound like an overall bad player, honestly. The point of using a feint is to bait an opponent into jumping or using a highly risky move against you (such as an Ultra). The feint isn’t meant to be just something you use that you get, “lucky” with and work that way. If you think it’s just a, “lucky gimmick” when it works, you’re not using it right.

I remember fighting a few players before and kept throwing rocks at them, even at mid-range, then when I knocked them down, I did fake bad stone. You know what happened? They saw the animation of Cody picking up a rock and did a wake up Ultra (or SRK, or something similar) and got punished big time cause I guarded it.

I have also used fake bad stone at times to get my opponent to jump, then use HK RK into MK RK for a knockdown and start my pressure game when they wake up. So yeah, they are far from, “lucky gimmicks”. You just have to know when to use it (like the rock, itself, as I mentioned earlier). Also, he may move a little slow, but honestly…I don’t think it would be really fair if he moved any faster, considering his damage output. There had to be some sort of downside and that was it.

However, you say, “not have a proper zoning tool” as if he just doesn’t have one at all. The rock is his zoning tool. It isn’t a Hadouken, but it is certainly a, “proper” tool when used correctly. As for the whole, “part of his game style” bit…I’ll take a part from Ryan’s post even though I’m starting to hate how much this has already been harped on.

This isn’t Street Fighter Alpha 3

His previous styles are irrelevant now. If you’re going to focus on trying to play SSFIV Cody like SFA3 Cody, then go play SFA3. Just learn to adapt, man. Even some of the returning SFIV characters’ styles have changed a little when compared to their previous version, but people adapted to the new style because they had to if they wanted to keep playing.

Well, with your, “Cody sucks” statement there at the end, your true colors were shown. All of the problems you have with him are problems you have with yourself when playing as him, so instead of getting better, you would rather complain and say there’s a problem (s) with the character itself, since that’s easier than blaming yourself. Cody has quite a lot of good tools for multiple situations, so he’s far from, “sucks” category, honestly.

Anyway, you sound like you’ve got bigger problems than any of the ones you have listed for Cody, so my suggestion would be to hit up the lab and start training, man. Maybe later you will come to appreciate some of Cody’s finer points instead of trying to find all this bad stuff (nerfs) about him.

#18

rocks still have its uses. but kyokuji pretty much nailed it on the head. the angle of the rocks and the huge delay when releasing the button really makes it hard to be as effective as it should be. its still a useful tool, but its still limiting. on the plus side, fake rocks is more accessible in ssf4 than they were in arcade a3, so its more viable to use in ssf4. you gotta use a lot of fake rocks to prompt a jump. if you can get the opponent into that bait, big damage awaits off a high ruffian fadc

#19

I doubt the idea that his rocks are bad because Ono’s team (including Capcom QA) didn’t understand why their arc was important. While transitioning chars from their original games to SSF4 they made their own little changes for each of the characters. Honestly, they probably just didn’t want Cody to zone very much with his rocks. All of the new characters in SSF4 are pretty rushdown-oriented.

#20

I whole heartily agree with the initial post. I wasn’t a pro at A3 by any means, but even a casual player recognizes the loss of the arc as a big deficit to Cody’s game. I mained Cody in A3 and that was the biggest thing I had to get used to coming over to SSF4 Cody. Rocks are still a very good tool, but the A3 player really has to retrain their brain as far as there function.