Command throw stuff


#1

In a command throw vs another command throw situation, the person who inputs it faster will win correct?

whats the best way to beat a command throw? I was thinking that you’d maybe want a slower attack that stays out longer since while the other guy is inputting the command throw, you will hopefully be able to push him away enough so that he can’t reach, but I guess on the other side of that, he can grab you still while your limb is extended or whatever? I assume its better than mashing jabs though because your opponent will still be inputing the command while youre hitting him with jabs and by the time the throw actually comes out, the inputting will be so lenient (vs a quick move) that the the command throw will come out no matter what frames the jab is in.

Crazy thoughts…


#2

I typed up a response but frankly I have a hard time figuring out what type of situation your describing and asking about.


#3

Imagine being close up next to Zangief. How can you prevent him from doing his SPD?


#4

It’s still not clear what you’re talking about. First of all, these questions could have easily gone in general discussion, or if you’re talking about Zangief or Hawk, then in their character specific threads.

Having said that, are you talking about any character vs Zangief? Any specific matchup? Are you talking about after knocking Zangief down, or if Zangief is pressuring you with tick SPDs?

As far as I know, special throw vs special throw is about the same as normal throw vs normal throw. IMO it’s a 50-50 chance it could go either way. This hasn’t been definitively proven, and there may be a priority order for special throws (example: SPD may beat Typhoon, Typhoon may beat Oichio). Nobody knows for sure, but the best way to beat *any *throw, is an invincible on startup special attack (example: Shoryuken, Hawk’s DP, etc). Hope that helps.


#5

up close as the attacker, or the defender? you need to specify these questions and hypotheticals because they can have a bunch of answers. If I was in an asshole mood I would leave it at that but still, specify.

as the attacker, don’t leave an opening. Because every open frame where he is not in hit/blockstun is a possible SPD if you are in a throwable state (i.e. not airborne or being invincible).

as the defender, counter throws work, even if you are counter throwing with a normal throw (the theory there is that your throw comes out on reversal frame where you can do stuff to your opponent, but your opponent can’t do anything to you). Or you can do an unthrowable move on reversal frame.


#6

My bad for not being clear. It’s actually a two part question.

The first part, blitzfu I think you gave the best answer. It being a 50-50 chance. I’m just curius about priorities between command throws. Like if player 1 was anyone that had a command throw, and player 2 was also someone with a command throw. Would one move have more priority over another (SPD vs Typhoon, typhoon vs Ochio, etc.)?

General Discussion is for non fighting games and I asked here because its a general strategy relating to command throw characters in HDR.

As for the second part im asking what the best defense to a command throw would be. If you were just standing in command throw range, not in hit or block stun, if you think the opponent is going to command throw you, what would be the best way to deal with it?


#7

Best option: Keep command throwers away. If a command thrower is close enough to you for a command throw, they also have several options available to them, and in most cases the guessing game is in their favor. Keeping them out shuts out these options completely.

Second best option: Use your “anti-tick throw move”

Since it’s a guessing game, though, if your opponent blocks one of those moves, he might be able to retaliate. Also note that Honda can just negative edge Ochio so you’re pretty hosed in those situations anyway.


#8

he meant the general HDR discussion thread in this forum.


#9

As for the 50/50 on throws, that’s only if it’s on the ONE frame that they can possibly be on at the same time, there’s no window like in later SF games so it’s really, really rare for that to happen. If one throw gets entered literally 1 frame sooner than the other than that will win as long as it’s in range.


#10

That’s true Grog. I should’ve specified that it’s only 50-50 when the throws are done on the exact same frame. Thanks for catching that. = J


#11

So to bring up a possible situation, if both my opponent and I have command throws, and he ticks me, like on a jump-in, do we have an equal chance of landing a command throw (with me obviously going for a reversal), or does it not work that way?


#12

I swear to god all this throw shit has been discussed before. but I’m a (relatively) old timer and can’t be bothered to remember where it all is.

anyways in your situation.

gief does jump in knees against another gief.

reversal spd will win. (i.e. blocking gief gets a free grab if jumping gief doesn’t do a combo off the knees)

here’s what sometimes happens though

knees hit early and you reversal too early, while jumping gief is still airborn, then jumping gief lands and grabs you.

knees hit late and gief walks backwards (outside your grab range) you reversal but it whiffs and then he grabs you!

knees hit late and you get comboed because you’re mashing 360 instead of blocking

knees hit late and jumping gief is smart and does jump back roundhouse smacking you in the face when you try and 360 him.

knees hit late and you’re tired of of gief doing jump knees into jump back roundhouse so you lariat instead

(and you never want to jump knees in the gief matchup j.short roundhouse and fierce happen to be much better options if you choose to jump in, and rarely even then!)

MIND GAMES!!!

on the real though in gief vs. gief I just try and play footsies to counter hit sweeps with sweeps then walk in and out of 360 range on wakeup (3s style) to bait whiff 360s and sweep punish them. also try and stay at that range where s.roundhouse will anti air all of jumping giefs jumps. play a turtle game.

the question though?

if both of you are in grabbable states the first person to execute the grab wins.

this is why reversal grabs beat ticks. reversal grab is ungrabbable state directly into grab and you’re never in a grab vulnerable state.

still though, just don’t bother leaving it up mixups and execution, just out play them with superior footsies.

i.e. watch this: [media=youtube]e4Ku-gYfmrE[/media]

here’s another fantastic example: [media=youtube]0u6WTXiK5zw[/media]


#13

Yea I know mind games are what it all comes down to. I’m just trying to figure out command throw properties and I felt like my question was pretty obscure. It’s great too that you mention beating the opponent with footsies because command throws basically add more depth to the footsie game.

The Gief matches were great too, btw.


#14

Listen, command throw properties only differ in range/dmg/active frames(for gief). Aside from they abide by the same rules as normal throws in terms of when the throw will connect and what can be done against it.


#15

But normal throws cannot beat command throws if done on the same frame except for an extremely random small chance (another random element of ST arcade). This is why Honda’s Ochio Throw loop in the corner for ST was so devastating against certain characters. Take Dictator, if Dictator doesn’t use a reversal throw against Honda’s meaty low jab, he has almost no chance of reversing the incoming Ochio Throw even if he’s in range for his own throw. Why? Because command throws take priority over normal throws in ST. Just boot up an ST Rom and map Honda’s Ochio Throw and Dictator’s normal throw to the same controller and watch what happens. The Ochio Throw should win every time when they are done on the same frame.

There is an extremely small chance of a reversal normal throw being able to beat a perfect tick into command throw but the odds of that happening are insanely small. Just like after you wake up from a knockdown you are unthrowable for 13 frames most of the time, but there is a very small chance, like so small that it doesn’t even matter really, that you can be thrown on the first frame that you have vulnerable hitboxes after you wake up.

This is all arcade ST though. I’m not sure how faithful HDR’s randomness is to arcade ST because the game was ported from the Japanese DC version of ST.


#16

I think the whole “random” nature was either toned down or completly removed from HDR’s engine. I recall Sirlin going over that whole element in one of his many, many HDR articles.


#17

True, but like you said that’s speaking of a situation where both throws are active on the exact same frame.

The situation you’re describing with dic vs honda is completely different, you should know this. When someone wants to throw you he has to wait for you to recover from your unthrowable state. But on the last unthrowable frame you are given the ability to reversal with anything (the reversal frame). Now seeing as how throws are instant, if you execute your throw on reversal frame your throw comes out a frame before your opponents.

So if the honda makes the mistake of ticking into ochio from within dics throw range he is giving dic a 100% sure thing option out of the corner, he only has to execute it right.


#18

The only random things that we know are confirmed to be changed in HDR are input windows for dragon punches and SUPERS and unblockable attacks. At least that’s what I can remember off of the top of my head.

Dragon punches in ST usually have an 8-15 frame input window but the window always leans towards a smaller amount than a larger amount. So you are far more likely to have to input a DP motion within 8 frames than 15. SUPERS attacks iin ST had an 8 through 20 frame window and also usually leaned towards the smallest window (8 frames) as well. In HDR the dragon punch window is a constant 15 frames, and SUPER attacks are a constant 20 frames.

In ST any move that hit on the first frame (Ken’s fierce DP, O.char juice kicks, Blanka’s up ball) had a 50% chance of being unblockable. That ‘bug’ was removed in HDR as well.

As far as I can tell, damage, throw priority, dizzy, and charge times seem to be still random in HDR. And all of the other subtle random occurrences (like Ryu’s short into SUPER failing randomly to combo) are still in tact as well.

Sirlin removed certainly some of the randomness in the game but most of it seems to be present (at least what was preset in the Dreamcast version).

You cannot throw on the last frame of block or hit stun. You must throw in your first frame AFTER you are out of stun. And if Honda times his command throw on the very first frame that you recover then he will throw you almost every time if you try to reversal throw.

You can throw one frame before you are fully standing after waking up because there is a special recovery frame during all wake up animations that allows attacks and throws to come out while you are invulnerable yet fully standing (this mechanic is what allows normal throws as reversal to beat meaty attacks). That special frame does not exist coming out of hit or block stun as far as I’m aware. This is why when a character tick throws in a mirror match and the opponent performs a reversal throw the outcome is always 50/50.

Just test it with Zangief against Dictator. Get as close to Dictator as you can, tick him, and perform an SPD so that the active grab frames directly overlap with Dictator’s first frame out of block (or hit) stun. Make sure that the tick leaves Zangief within Dictator’s throw range. Now try to reversal throw with Dictator and see how often your reversal throw actually works. The reversal throw from Dictator should almost never work.


#19

I just did that test myself and that’s not what happened. Honda’ s ochio and Dictator’s normal throw came out about 50/50 each. So my conclusion is that command throws don’t magically have priority over normal throws in ST.

(How I did it was to map :hp: on both players to the same button on my stick, have P2 Dictator walk left (keyboard-controlled except for :hp:) and P1 Honda (stick-controlled) walk right into each other, then input a :r::df::d::db::hp: ochio with my stick.)

Edit: That was on an ST rom + emulator.


#20

You could be right…
I KNOW that dizzy was altered on the character side of things, and charge times random? I have a really, really hard time with that one, but yeah you could be right about the rest of it, I have been looking through the old Sirlin articles, and nothing is mentioned about the throws and randomness.

EDIT: Unless of course Thelo has made an interesting discovery…