Community Counter-Tech Development


#1

This is a spin-off from the team thread that was started ~2 months back.

The idea is to get everyone working on solving specific matchups/setups as they become prevalent in the meta in order to help advance the level of tech in the game. There have been way too many situations where the FGC as a whole lets unsafe setups or situation go unpunished for longer than it should have purely from lack of matchup knowledge (e.g. LightingxxBusterxxLightning.) People will always take the route of least resistance and continue using bad setups even when they know they’re punishable UNTIL they’re forced to up their game. By creating a repository of matchup/setup information, I’m hoping that we can force people to continue to create more and better setups (which we will try to break, and so on.)

I’m going to grab a few posts at the start here and plan to keep them updated with the tech that we’re able to put out. I want to keep the information gained from this as easily accessible as possible since I don’t want this to be information just for the people actively posting here. I would love to have everyone in the lab helping to solve the problems but I’ll gladly settle for people using the knowledge in their matches, even if they never post here. After we get a setup broken down I would like to have a video breakdown compiling all the options into a compact digestible form to maximize the usefulness. Assuming the forums get put back together, I would like to have them filed by character and easily accessible.

How I’m hoping to do this is we take a look at the most recent majors and find setups that are being used effectively. This can be anything from a Morridoom zoning pattern to a simple teleport + assist setup but once we decide on a specific situation, we’ll link it here (video and inputs) and everyone will go into the lab, set up a dummy recording, and do their best to break it. Once we find a gap and learn how to break the specific setup, we alter the setup to account for the weakness and try to break it again.

The idea here is to keep things relatively simple. If there’s a particularly nasty multi-tiered mixup, we’ll have to break it down and run it a tier at a time (same with flood zoning patterns.) We have to accept the limitations of the recording system, but I think inside that limitation we can still have a significant effect on the meta. The idea is to create building blocks that people can use to create more advanced counters as they run into them.

So give me a few post reserves and lets get some suggestions of what needs to be broken!


2015 UMVC3 SRK Tier/Theory Discussion. 7/10 First Page Tumblr: Power of snapback, Future power teams
Community Team Tech Development: Cycle 11 Strider Hiryu/Doctor Strange/Akuma
#2

Current Ongoing Problems:

X23 = Beating unassisted Dirt Nap, Throw punishing Talon Attack Ms and Neck Slicers. (I’ll throw my girl under the bus to end people doing bad setups/pressure.)

C.Viper = Beating Focus Attack setups (Incoming/Resets)

Rocket Raccoon = Beating bad Mad Hopper + Boulder > Hard Tag Setups.

Firebrand = Beating Snap > Unblockables.

Dante = Beating Stinger + Assist > Teleport.

Zero = Beating/Negating/Blocking his Incoming game. Punishing his neutral game. Beating Zero + JS.

Doom = Beating foot dive, Beating/Avoiding hidden missiles.

Vergil = Dealing with spiral swords, Beating raw Rapid Slash, Killing Vergil before he can touch the ground (abusing his lack of incoming options).

Morrigan= Beating AV + Hidden Missiles (‘The Morridoom’), Beating Shell Kick.

Wolverine = Beating B.Slash plus Assist. Beating Dive Kick.

Nova = Beating Dolphin Kick Pressure.


#3

(Reserved)


#4

(Reserved)


#5

(Reserved)


#6

(Reserved)


#7

Yeah I was hoping someone would make a thread against this.

Doom = Dealing with foot dive, hidden missiles assist

Vergil = Dealing with spiral swords, raw rapid slash “mix ups”, dealing or getting rid of anchor vergil before he is an issue. I know I’ve heard someone say that for basic block strings from an assistless Vergil you can just hold down forward will option select block after that. If he goes for rapid slash the absolute guard will take care of the front blocks and then when he switches behind you will block correctly in the other direction. If you’re afarid of just a raw rapid slash in neutral just yolo jab or throw him out of it. Better than guess blocking.

Morrigan= AV + assist stuff, dealing with j.S

Wolverine = pretty simple. Need fast/invincible reversal or armor once he gets near you. Don’t let him get near especially with assist. Some stuff like dive kick is easier to deal with if you chicken block and there’s no assist covering. He’s basically just don’t let him get near because there isn’t really much you can do (least that I’ve found) other than guess grab or jab out of berserker slash. Everything else requires zoning/runaway.


#8

i was wondering when a thread would be made to deal with the derp derp in this game. good show to you Sir Merk. hopefully i’ll actually contribute to something instead of hording all of my information =/


#9

The thing with j.S that people don’t take advantage of is that it’s not cancellable into ANYTHING. Not into flight, not into specials, not into supers. Morrigan needs to commit to it when it’s out and she’s vulnerable until she hits the floor. It’s a great button with a grody multi-hitting hitbox but it’s not safe if whiffed at all.

It’s really educational to watch Chris G play Morrigan because he is a master at keeping her spacing incredibly tight. Air approach is usually fireball into j.S so if you block the fireball, your blockstun will carry over to make the j.S safe. The important thing to do is fuck with those spacings however you can. Backdash, teleport, projectile counter, double jump - use movement options to put yourself in a place where you can capitalize on that j.S if they throw it out.

Smart Morrigans are using more j.H which is also a really, really good button now (with a hitbox that covers her whole body) and can be cancelled, so be aware of that.

I think the AV stuff has been gone over so many times that it isn’t funny. Get out of the way. Spend a lot of time in the air. Let missiles hit you and reset your air actions. Stop pressing so many fucking buttons. That’s about all there is to that.


#10

Something I recorded a while ago trying to escape the very basic Vergil/Strider stuff.

Not applicable to Vergil/Mags, or more layered round trip stuff.

Would be much appreciated if someone would suggest tighter Vergil stuff to try out. I am not a Vergil player.

A universal escape should be to dash forward out of strider’s way, though front teleport Vergil may slow you enough to get clipped.


#11

I imagine most of the stuff we discuss here will be old news to a portion of the community but for every person that knows how to deal with a matchup, there’s probably 10 people that only know what they’ve heard on a stream or anecdotal stuff. I’m hoping that we can focus on character specific stuff as well as general counters. For the characters that have no way of combating soul fist spam, then I’m interested in what options they have to stay out of the way as long as possible. I would like to see character specific counter-spam that allows you to advance or pressure.

I’m sure Morridoom is the general hate flavor of the month, so we’ll probably get more interest starting on that.

I think it’s more practical to start on lame morridoom counters rather than ChrisG’s rushdown Morridoom (we’ll def. get to that, though.)

I think we should start with the Morridoom Classic just to get the ball rolling. (Flocker demonstrating it @ 17:30 in the FR finals vid.) I won’t get a chance to get to the lab until tomorrow, so if someone could post the specific inputs for a AV + Missiles soul fist spam loop (full screen horizontal), I would appreciate it (otherwise I’ll try and post it tomorrow evening.)

This isn’t character specific, so just pick your character/team of choice and show how you deal with it starting from one side of the screen and crossing to the other (outside of SJ height, when possible.) If you want to show a counter flood option, then try to let morrigan get at least the first wave of soul fists out (preferable more if your team can dish out significantly more durability than Morridoom). If you’re showing specific methods for sniping doom assist calls, wait until the 2nd doom call to show the viability of the snipe inside of the zoning pattern. If your character/team doesn’t have any way to advance at ground level, then show effective stall tactics at SJ height. Try to keep in mind that this is understandably simplified but we’re only looking to take things one piece at a time.

Whenever possible, please try to have a video, even if it’s a crappy hand cam/phone vid.


#12

Whatever Chris G’s fighting whenever he switches to offensive is probably a lame Morridoom counter.

eg. FChamp’s Dorm team, …


#13

whatever happened to the “dealing with derp” thread?


#14

Beats me, I never knew it existed. :confused:


#15

That’s my old thread. It was similar to this but haven’t updated it in a while. @merkyl999x ill send you the link and you can fill in some of the data that’s already there.


#16

One thing I’m noticing a lot on stream is that people are giving too much respect to Round Trip in the neutral during startup. THIRTY frames (27 in devil trigger). That’s a million years in Marvel time. And any projectile that touches it, no matter what the durability, completely negates it (iirc). People need to get on punishing that more consistently.


#17

Also anything Vergil blocks causes round trip to lose its hit boxes. Even it if it out you can sometimes poke safely.


#18

Dealing with Wolverine mixups…Taskmaster counters…people underrate those moves man…they are really good.


#19

It’s really educational to watch Chris G play Morrigan because he is a master at keeping her spacing incredibly tight. Air approach is usually fireball into j.S so if you block the fireball, your blockstun will carry over to make the j.S safe. The important thing to do is fuck with those spacings however you can. Backdash, teleport, projectile counter, double jump - use movement options to put yourself in a place where you can capitalize on that j.S if they throw it out.


#20

Where’s that info on stopping Lightning x Buster, again?