Community Tierlist - Gen help requested!

gen

#1

Hello Gen mainers,

At Community Tierlist - overview you can see a brand new dynamic tierlist which is a combined effort of all people on the SRK character forums.

The goal of this web application is to get all people who main a certain character to give their opinion on that character matchups, and then to combine all that data in one overall list.
The idea worked pretty well when performed by the Rose forum (http://shoryuken.com/f277/rose-mis-fortunes-rose-match-up-poll-263465/), most users reached a consensus and Rose got a nice analysis that ranked her around 13th to 17th place, on par with the latest opinions on her by American and Japanese top players.

If all character forums take a small effort to go vote on their character we will get:
[list]
[] a per character average of matchups
[
] a community-generated tierlist
[] a cross-matchup view on each matchup (as for example Gen vs Ryu will be ranked both in Gen view as in Ryu view)
[
] and when enough data is provided: a statistical view on contested matchups, on agreed upon matchups and more!
[/list]

Because this list is open, and inputs are sensitive I took a few measure to get better results:
[list]
[] You can only vote once per character
[
] You need to provide the forumcode of you character to validate your vote (provided here), so that you can’t simply click around and vote on anything you want
[*] The extreme votes are removed statistically (10% lowest and 10% highest are discounted)
[/list]
Gen forumcode is: gen102224
Please copy/paste this in the forumcode box

I will gradually go to each character forum to collect votes. After your vote you can copy/paste your input to this thread for further discussion.

Hopefully we get a good result! :slight_smile:

Web application: Community Tierlist - overview
Forumcode: gen102224


#2

User leGENdary kiryu voted on gen
viper: 4.0
guile: 4.5
bison: 3.5
chun: 3.0
deejay: 5.0
guy: 5.0
seth: 3.5
ibuki: 4.5
vega: 4.5
fuerte: 3.5
dudley: 5.0
sagat: 4.0
cammy: 4.0
makoto: 5.0
dhalsim: 4.0
rufus: 3.5
gouken: 5.0
adon: 4.0
ken: 3.0
hakan: 5.0
rose: 4.0
akuma: 4.0
balrog: 4.0
honda: 3.0
zangief: 3.5
dan: 5.0
sakura: 5.0
ryu: 4.0
hawk: 4.0
fei: 3.0
cody: 5.0
abel: 3.5
blanka: 4.0
juri: 5.0


#3

I think Messiah is pretty much on the ball on this one. I do however feel the Akuma match is 5.0 though. Sure akuma has a great keepaway game,etc. Once gen gets super or mantis ultra 1 akuma cant throw a single air FB or teleport. Has to keep it grounded,and I personally feel Gen can keep up with Akuma on the ground.


#4

User MTS voted on gen
viper: 5.0
guile: 3.0
bison: 3.0
chun: 3.0
deejay: 5.0
guy: 5.0
seth: 5.0
ibuki: 5.0
vega: 5.0
fuerte: 5.0
dudley: 4.5
sagat: 5.0
cammy: 3.0
makoto: 5.0
dhalsim: 3.0
rufus: 4.0
gouken: 5.0
adon: 4.0
ken: 5.0
hakan: 5.0
rose: 3.5
akuma: 4.0
balrog: 5.0
honda: 3.0
zangief: 5.0
dan: 5.0
sakura: 4.5
ryu: 5.0
hawk: 6.5
fei: 4.5
cody: 4.0
abel: 4.0
blanka: 5.0
juri: 5.0


#5

I wasn’t looking at keep away. I was looking at rush down. Akuma’s rush down, and mix-up is very good. His Option-Selects help him so much. Gen has way too much trouble with rush down characters, more than keep-a-way. At least with keep-a-way characters you have the ability to dodge things easier.

I’m also taking into account the fact that some of the characters like Seth can be lame. Sonic-Boom spam with wall dives are so over powering vs Gen. And if he’s an actual good Seth, his mix-ups give Gen way too much trouble. unless he has meter.


#6

Wait what? No way in hell Seth is 3.5 in his favor in any way whatsoever. All of Gens anti-airs and crane air moves completely destroy Seths walldives or even regular air normals. Not to mention his j.hp is fairly useless against Gen, since you can air to air trade with it at your leisure, or trade with a grounded normal anti-air. Also he has no footsies at all (lol the best is s.mk) and has to resort to either 2 extremes: full blown zoning (like I said, his j.hp isn’t all that heh) or mix-up game/rushdown. The real threath is ofcourse when you are knocked down. But untill then it is pretty much an even match. In this regard it is much like zangief, except Seth does a lot less damage and cannot be as careless in his aproach due to health. Also his main tools for getting in are walldive and divekick, both can easily be traded with Gens (air) normals or EX gekiro if you really must.

IMO a solid 5-5

Most Seths I play (I pretty much play Seth and viper fulltime right now) and myself would agree that the Gen match-up is fair. Hell some Seth players even think Gen has a slight advantage due to his good footsie/poke game and air normals.


#7

i play sabins and buddahforces seths and both make it more trhan just a 5-5


#8

seth doesnt need to play proper footsies also u didnt ead sonic boom wall dive stuffs gens neutral normals

im also basing it on japanese matches ive seen


#9

I highly doubt sanchez would say the match is heavily in Seths favor, same goes for buddahforce.

Also ‘Seth doesn’t need to play footsies’ is hardly a argument for your case. He doesn’t ‘need’ to play footsies because he doesn’t have any real footsie game. If he did it’d be crazy. But Gen has this and that makes it a lot harder for Seth to get in, he cannot divekick unless done safejump/wake-up either. Please don’t say I did not read properly, it’s very insulting. Sonic boom> walldive stuffs any characters movement to an extend obviously, but only when done on certain occasions like on Gens wake-up. If done from a neutral position (i.e. both players standing on opposite sides) you can easily jump over his sonic boom with crane j.hp, if he walldives he gets stuffed (sometimes it’ll trade but unlikely, and not a big deal) and if he does j.hp it will usually trade and sometimes stuff depending on who pressed first and spacing and such. Honestly Seth should be scared to walldive against Gen, and if/once Gen has super…

I play Seth myself and play kanta-kun sometimes. We had a small discussion on Gen a little while back over at the Seth forums, I’ll quote some feelings of Seth mains from that discussion:

‘‘Even not knowing much about the matchup, it does feel extremely awkward and tough for Seth.’’

‘‘Yeb definitely played the character more footsies/poking based and that is definitely more of a problem for Seth than one that is completely gimmicky.’’

‘‘I sort of agree with Yunghove on this one. The matchup for me is difficult sometimes with more footsies/poking based Fei’s (like Gen haha). Mostly because Fei really doesn’t have to do much. He can pretty much live off pokes and trades.’’

Ofcourse you may argue that this is anecdotal evidence (the discussion gravitated towards general problems of Seth against footsie based characters), but so are the things you’ve said on watching japanese matches. I Pm’ed sabin and buddahforce on their thoughts on Gen being disadvantaged in this match, I’ll post them here once I get them.

What do you feel gives Seth the advantage? Like what aspect in particular? We never had a Seth discussion before, and this is fun.

EDIT: forgot to say this: opinions from ‘pro players’ on Gen match-ups are hardly viable I’d say. It’s not like 90% of them even know what moveset Gen has. That probably what makes this so hard to gauge anyway, the unfamilarity.


#10

I agree with warlike. Seth’s footsie game is terrible. Gekiro trades or beats out jumpback fierce. Crane super punishes jump back seths hard. Teleport is punishable with U1. Sonic boom has bad recovery and will net Gen a free combo if done too close, and Mantis super > U1 takes away over 75% of Seth’s life. Seth has to stay out of the corner and out of the sky when Gen has full meter.


#11

all seth has to do vs gen is full screen sonic-boom wall dive. gen cannot do anything. he cannot focus attack. he cannot neutral jump. he can jump back but that’s just pointless. his mix up is great, and if you are a scrub masher, then ya gekiro works great. but come play 3S, no auto blocking. If Seth wants to play keep away, gen can’t do shyte. Once Seth is in, if you are a Gekiro masher you might have a chance. but sorry, I prefer not to mash like some scrub.


#12

User Vanesco voted on gen
viper: 3.0
guile: 4.5
bison: 5.0
chun: 4.0
deejay: 6.0
guy: 4.0
ibuki: 3.0
seth: 4.0
vega: 5.0
fuerte: 6.0
dudley: 6.0
sagat: 6.0
cammy: 6.0
makoto: 7.0
dhalsim: 5.0
rufus: 3.0
gouken: 7.0
adon: 6.5
ken: 3.5
rose: 5.0
hakan: 6.0
akuma: 5.0
balrog: 4.0
honda: 3.0
zangief: 5.0
dan: 5.0
sakura: 5.0
ryu: 6.0
hawk: 7.0
cody: 6.0
fei: 3.5
abel: 5.0
blanka: 3.5
juri: 5.0

Either you guys are too pessimistic or need to level up!


#13

Just keeping it real! :wink:


#14

You know, when I lose I know it is pretty much on me because, really, I’m pretty mediocre. All that I’d say with any confidence is that Gen has the edge on (super) Makoto, and possibly on Gouken (as Crane U2 messes with his anti-air stat). Still I’m very surprised that there are so many 3’s getting posted.

When you guys say 3 do you literally mean that you think the other character is MORE than twice as good as Gen in that match-up?

Honestly curious.


#15

Some characters have either the tools to out-footsie/poke Gen (Fei/Chun/Blanka), limit his options to the point of worthlessness (Honda/Viper), or have a strong mix-up game that leads to big stun/damage (Viper/Ibuki/Rufus/Seth). Some of them just have solid reversals and can throw them out safely (w/ or w/o fadc) for free punish or chip (Rufus, Ken, Blanka, Honda). These matches are extremely hard for a character with the hurtboxes, start-up, lack of invincibility, health, and stun that Gen has. Some of these are better if you have super or ultra stocked, but that’s hardly a winning plan.

Combine that with neutered escape options and you get terrible match-ups.


#16

First of all, what does this have to do with anything in regard to this discussion at all?

And you keep repeating yourself, sonic boom into walldive must be timed properly and is only actually safe when done on Gens wake-up (or in certain situations if Gen is cornered). Gens crane j.hp beats out his walldive into j.hk. I also don’t know why you mention scrub masher all of a sudden, as that has no relevancy at all either. You don’t need to mash gekiro at all.

If he is purely playing keep away, then you would know that his j.hp is pretty awful and trades (sometimes even gets beaten out) with some of Gens air normals (hell I even got a crane j.hkx2 into U1 once by hitting j.hp on it’s start-up!). Gens vs Seth in the air is really free. And once you have U1 or super then it severely limits Seths Keep away abilities.
The offensive Seth is slightly more problematic, but as long as he does not knock you down a lot of your pokes (mantis c.mp into hands, s.mp, s.mk) keep any of his pokes at bay, he basically cannnot do much against them unless he is within spd range or does random lightning kicks (which are highly punishable on block anyway). If he divekicks the answer is pretty much always mantis c.hp or ex gekiro. Honestly Seth should have one hell of a time trying to get in. Let’s not forget Gens amazing cross-up abilities which are fairly annoying for Seth to deal with in the first place. His cs.hp is too slow most of the time to catch crane j.mk cross-ups.

Regardless, the nature of Gen is almost opposite from the way Seth is. Gens ultras and supers all work really well against him, and Seth cannot deal with pressure himself either. And ofcourse his 750 health ensures that if you hit him hard with an ultra or super (or even a regular combo, or fadc combo) that the match is almost over or atleast very much in your favor. A lot of Seth mains fear Gen because a single mk hands or c.mk hands or Oga etc.) leads to an ultra/super. Gen hits hard against Seth, but the other way around not so much at all. That’s why Seth mains think the match-up is hard for them, dealing with a pure footsie based character is really hard. It’s the same reason Seth vs Ken is rated in his disadvantage. Forgot to add, his sonic booms have terrible recovery, so when you anticipate (or guess) right once you’re in aswell netting you a nice free combo. U2 can also be fairly useful in this match because crane U2 will beat out walldive j.hk attempts and poorly spaced/timed sonic booms. I’m also fairly sure that mantis U1 and super can punish j.hp (and as mentioned Seth cannot teleport freely at all if Gen has ultra or super).

This is basically an eloboration on what M.D. has said, but y’know just thought I’d throw some more thoughts out there.


#17

Seth’s mix-up is extremely good. The fights I’ve had with Online Tony and other very good aggressive Seths show that make this a very rough fight. Seth’s DP is amazing and has great follow-ups. Seth also has SPDs and option-select tandems to catch back-dashers/focus/button pressers. Stop jumping into his DP and U1.

The match changes dangerously for Seth if Gen get’s super or U1. Gen has great Air to Air options against Seth, and also answers to headstomps and dive-kicks. For the most part, Gen’s mobility and Gekiro make it difficult for Seth to lame it out. He’s no Dhalsim. The trouble comes around when Seth catches a knockdown or U1 and sets up his 50/50 sonic boom-teleport shenanigans. All in all, it’s pretty even. I’d say 6-4 in Seth’s favor, but even then with the flexibility to hit a 5-5. It’ll be better when AE comes out anyhow.

Btw. Love the tags on this thread <3


#18

I agree Vanesco, perhaps a 4.5 or 6-4 is more realistic until Gen has super/ultra.

Anyway:

User indico/warlike voted on gen
viper: 4.0
guile: 4.5
bison: 5.0
chun: 4.0
deejay: 5.0
guy: 5.0
seth: 5.0
ibuki: 4.5
vega: 5.0
fuerte: 5.0
dudley: 6.0
sagat: 5.0
cammy: 4.5
makoto: 5.0
dhalsim: 5.0
rufus: 3.5
gouken: 6.0
adon: 5.5
ken: 4.0
hakan: 6.0
rose: 5.0
akuma: 4.0
balrog: 4.5
honda: 4.0
zangief: 4.5
dan: 5.0
sakura: 5.0
ryu: 5.0
hawk: 6.0
fei: 4.0
cody: 5.0
abel: 4.5
blanka: 4.0
juri: 5.0


#19

User TommyTwoTime77 voted on Gen
Guile: 4.0
Bison: 4.0
Chun: 4.0
Deejay: 4.5
Guy: 2.0 (Accident. Supposed to be no opinion) :-/
Ibuki: 4.5
Seth: 4.5
Vega: 5.0
Fuerte: 2.0 (Accident again) Hmm
Dudley: 5.0
Sagat: 5.0
Cammy: 5.0
Makoto: 5.0
Dhalsim: 4.0
Rufus: 4.5
Gouken: 4.5
Adon: 5.0
Ken: 5.0
Rose: 4.0
Hakan: 5.0
Akuma: 4.0
Balrog: 4.5
Honda: 4.0
Zangief: 4.5
Dan: 5.0
Sakura: 4.5
Ryu: 5.0
Hawk: 4.5
Cody: 5.0
Fei: 4.5
Abel: 4.5
Blanka: 4.0
Juri: 4.5

I think one of the hardest parts of playing Gen is getting Super or Ultra in certain matchups. His super and ultra can be entirely game changing, as has been said in regards to the Seth matchup, but if you don’t really have the ability to build meter safely for super then that’s really neither here nor there.

I don’t think saying that Gen has neutered escape options is really a valid thing to say. We just have to block or guess correctly. The only time that I feel at a major disadvantage is when I’m on the ground and that’s how it should be. Not having EX Oga anymore sucks, but it was too free.

I think Gen is great when he’s inside, one of the best when it comes to footsies and pokes, the problem is getting inside. There’s never really a time where zoning characters have to change their normal game. Obviously a character shouldn’t be throwing fireballs when their opponent is close, but that’s the same against every character. What I mean is we don’t really have a huge game changing move, our closest thing is Crane U2. Characters like Chun, once they have U1, it shuts down fireballs from the opponent at all ranges. It’s almost impossible to do a move on reaction that counters a fireball with Gen. The anti-fb moves either have too much startup or slow on movement. Ex roll and ex walldive aren’t good enough in my opinion. But if some of it was changed, he may just become too good. And I really mean this. It’s hard to balance it well.

I have the most trouble with characters who can zone and have good footsies.


#20

WarriorBySand
viper: 3.5
guile: 4.0
bison: 4.0
chun: 4.0
deejay: 5.0
guy: 3.0
seth: 3.0
ibuki: 3.0
vega: 4.0
fuerte: 2.5
dudley: 4.5
sagat: 5.0
cammy: 3.5
makoto: 4.0
dhalsim: 3.0
rufus: 3.0
gouken: 5.0
adon: 4.5
ken: 4.0
hakan: 5.0
rose: 4.5
akuma: 4.0
balrog: 4.0
honda: 3.5
zangief: 3.0
dan: 4.5
sakura: 4.5
ryu: 5.0
hawk: 4.0
fei: 3.0
cody: 5.0
abel: 4.0
blanka: 3.5
juri: 4.5