Complaining about lag tactics


#1

I thought it best to move a conversation from the Good Games thread into its own thread.

There is a minority of players (and one very vocal player) who feel the need to rip on the way that online games are conducted (specificially on Kaillera) despite the fact that they play on this format on a regular basis. They feel that a game should be played online as it would offline. It is their feeling that you wouldn’t do something offline because it would get you punished or simply would not work so why would you carry a poor (or as one player rudely stated “retarded”) type of play online.

The majority of online players are of a different mentality. They are of the belief that should the tactic work on the format, it is free for use. Over the years, the debate of what is and is not acceptable within our particular genre of games, has reached a conclusion that the best players adapt, and the poor players either complain while losing or simply stop playing. Personally, I am for the idea that every game should be played individually. Played for its strengths and its weaknesses. Should a player find him or her self in a position where they are unable or UNWILLING to make an adjustment, it is the fault of said player and not of the community at large for accepting a particular type of style that may or may not be conducive to success in the offline environment.

My personal bottom line (and this is open to debate, thus the opening of this thread) and that you only get better through loss and adaptation. If you can’t break your own mental barriers, then you have no place calling yourself a good player and need to walk away from the fighting game community. The strong survive, the weak die. The strong don’t near to hear the bitching of the weak if they are not willing to make adjustments to further push their game to a higher level.


#2

Great idea for a thread, Ill throw some quick comments in for now.

For the people that constantly complain, I dont see why they keep playing if they sound like theyre not having fun. Ill admit, once in a blue moon (usually when I get absolutly STOMPED by someone) Ill take a break from the game for a bit, cause it can get frustrating sometimes.
I still have fun though, like I said in the good games thread, I play Kicks probably 5-6 nights a week, and he wins pretty much all the fights we have, but I still have fun playing it cause its just a game. And over the past few months, Ive learned from my mistakes and improved my game, and I know I can give a good amount of players a run for their money. At the same time though, I know theres a ton of room for improvement, but Im sure most players realize this in themselves.

And really, about lag tactics, the people that bitch about them really need to stop. I had one certain player complain about me hitting him out of his combos because we were apparently lagging, the funny thing was that 90% of the time I have a great connection. I guess people just like to throw fits when things dont go their way. :rofl:


#3

Yeah. That’s pretty much the way it is.


#4

Throwing in my 2 cents.

Do whatever you can to win just like arcade. Since you can’t avoid the input delay, might as well make it work for you. I don’t think you’ll get many arguments from people saying that fighting game are played much better offline than online, but if that’s what we got, then that’s what we got. Specifically categorizing certain way of playing is cheap (inferior tactics, brainless, abusive, etc…) is not much different from saying throw is cheap.

Blame the nature of fighting game for requiring the fastest response input, if the games we are playing is something like online chess or poker, then we wouldn’t have to worry about this.


#5

the bitching comes mainly from people wanting to actually have a proper game, not have to spend the entire time fighting off bullshit. also like 9999 said some people get frustrated when things do go there way OR when they lose when they know they shouldn’t but can’t do anything about it.

but then you don’t have to play if you can’t handle the lag or players doing the same stuff over and over. keep a record of reputable players, keep a list of the shitty players and kick em out when they join, or do what aXor used to do and just idle until a good player shows up :wgrin:.

simple.

moaning about “lag tactics” is waste of time as the other guy is almost never gonna listen to what you have to say or care enough to change.


#6

Actually, this minority of players, is the result of there actually being a severe lack of players online, that understand the difference between online and offline gameplay…that either have never played in the arcade, or never watched (or read from other experienced players) what arcade gameplay is like.

Actually, this makes sense, but it is not the reality. The reality is that most of these players that use lag tactics, don’t even KNOW that the tactic is not a valid one, because they do not understand how badly they would get killed if they did it in the arcade. Ie, they lack the knowledge or experience of the arcade gameplay. Yes, there probably are some people who believe they will exploit whatever they have to, to win, but most people do it because they don’t even know it’s invalid. I’m pretty sure this is the case with you as well…you just say it’s “adaptation to the environment”, after I call you out on it, although I bet you would have thought it was a totally valid strategy if no one said anything about it.

Using your argument Nagata, why don’t you also use autofire? I mean…it’s available for your usage, nothign is stopping you, and it will obviously enhance your gameplay.

It is unreasonable to have to fight against lag tactics. I have my own ways of battling them (for example, doing a quick backwards jump air to air such as Clark/Iori jump D). But in any case, I wouldn’t even have to use these methods in the reality, they are unnecessary. I don’t want my gameplay to have to change for reasons that shouldn’t exist in the first place. Thus, against people that I consider lag abusers, I just don’t bother playing them again. However, I will call them out on it if they are doing it.

And also, don’t associate complaints with losing. My win/loss ratio is about 95%, but I will still complain if I notice the abuse…and will usually leave. And 9999, what was happening in our matches was very obvious. You want me to explain? You were mashing during our matches…there was severe lag (not the delay that I was complain about when I talk about lag tactics, this was just connection lag). My combos were constantly being mistimed, and you were mashing between them and throwing me. The thing is, this only happened in the last two or so matches (when it actually started lagging), and never happened in the previous 15 or so matches we had. And unsurprisingly, you got closer to winning a match, while the game lagged. This shows that the lag only helped you to achieve this…mashing mindlessly in hope that the lag messed up my combos and mistimed attack strings. But the weird thing was that you said “ggs” to me, when the lag was awful…those just aren’t good games.


#7

I will agree that since the input lag is unavoidable, you might as well make it work for you. I don’t expect people to change their playstyle or hold themselves back somehow, because that defeats the purpose of playing to be competitive in the first place.

That being said, just because I accept it, doesn’t mean I like it. I won’t give you shit for lag abuse, but I’m probably not going to think too highly of you if I see you jumping in with HK in Alpha 3 over and over again, and I do occasionally get frustrated when I get nailed by random anti-airs because it’s too laggy for me to move properly. Again though, I won’t actually bitch at anyone for it, because I go online knowing that this is how it is.

Some people are stupid about it too. I’ve gotten a lot of shit from people for the way I play my 'Gief in ST. The way that game is structured online, it’s difficult to counter tick throws, since it’s hard getting an early DP out. But christ, that’s how you play 'Gief. It’s like they expect me to just let them get up. I’m not gonna pretend to block some wake-up DP that’s never coming out. If I don’t see you doing them, I’m gonna capitalize on that.

People who blame things on their connection/controller are even worse, because those are factors that
A) They already know about
B) You have absolutely nothing to do with.


#8

This doesn’t explain anything. You’ve repeatedly given lame examples, but never an explanation. This is one reason autofire isn’t allowed. It’s easily defined. Like handcuffs from Guile or Armor King. Or only allowing infinites until your meter is full.

You talk about the arcade like it’s the ghetto. Claiming you know so much about the arcade, does not mean you’re from the streets. I’m sure it’s safe to say that I’ve placed and won more tournaments outside of my own state than you have. 95% win ratio? Against select scrubs because you know you can beat them, but so could anyone.

The reality? You say that all the time. Like most of what you say, it’s just words. You say it like it carries this insurmountable significance because you don’t have anything better to say. Going out of your way to insult someone instead of being constuctive is malicious not realistic. I seriously say this because I’ve turned several hateful users on Kaillera into great players because I asked them if they’d like to learn when they called me names and complained, instead of throwing insults right back.

You’re still ignoring the neutral judge in all fighting games… The outcome. If someone is winning then it’s valid. I don’t see how you can argue that. Others have said that they wouldn’t respect it… Of course they wouldn’t. A while back I got beat by a scrub in SC3 because I hadn’t ever seen Nightmare’s relaunch ground/tech trap. You have to tech a certain way, but tech any other way, or guard, or stay grounded, and you’ll get relaunched. He literally got booed, but he’s the one that went on to the next round.
Ignoring the arcade gameplay? That’s like saying I’m ignoring ring outs when I’m playing Street Fighter. It doesn’t exist. I don’t need to worry about it. I need to worry about the game at hand.


#9

yeah but some people are straight up faggots. like ex players on cvs2…stupid fucks play chain combo vega/bison/blanka/whoever and and keeps jumping all day and chain 6-7 hits like its supposed to be marvel or something :mad:

then you got roll abusing bitchs that roll through everything. it pissses me off cuz I KNOW they cant get away with all these randomass rolls offline.

overheads abusing faggots. ken/kyo overheads all day everyday…you see it coming but almost impossible to stop it in lag…


#10

The explanation is easy to follow from the examples…but I’ve already given the explanation. You talk as if you do not even know what the term “lag tactic” refers to…although I’d say the term is misleading. The “lag tactics” most refer to would be better called “delay tactics”. A tactic that takes advantage of the input delay, such that it is much more difficult to counter (on reaction), as opposed to when you do not have this delay. Such tactics include spamming moves with high/low followups(Andy air qcf+K, Joe mash P into high/low followup anyone?), doing repeated jumpins as if they have autoguard or something, and continuously rolling into the opponent when he isn’t even attacking. You would never get away with this (especially the latter), in the arcade…this is why you never see people roll around in high level gameplay, yet the people online think it’s the best strategy ever. Usually anyone who rolls forward to try to land a throw, has no clue about how to really play…since the roll into throw strat is never used in the reality since you’d just get thrown first (or max comboed out of the roll).

I don’t select anyone, they just join my games. I try to avoid these scrubs usually, although I’ve begun doing what ax0r does…idling until someone good joins. I don’t even consider my matches against scrubs to be matches at all, more like a comedy show. I don’t see how you could place in a tourney using your tactics, unless they were scrubs as well…since anyone could easily anti-air that shit…as I’ve said before, your controller seems to be stuck on “up”.

Actually it is constructive…I could just be like the other idiots and say “you’re a noob, you suck, go kill yourself”. What I notice about you is you don’t even tell noobs what they are doing wrong most of the time…they could be repeating the same mistkaes for 10+ matches and you’d still try to give them positive feedback (and pretty much only that). Either way, that’s not what this thread is about…

LOL, what black and white thinking…using only that claim, I can just mention autofire again. You’d have to change what you said…What you say is only valid in the arcade environment…you cannot attach the same meaningfulness to an online win, that you can to an offline win. But as I was saying, people who abuse lag tactics rarely win against me anyway (except possibly in a game I don’t play), but my point is that lag tactics DO exist, the cheapen the online experience, and there is no respect that should be given to players who abuse them.


#11

It’s like any game when you play it differently than it’s intended play. Online is fun, but none of the games were created with lag in mind, and as such the games are different if lag is a major component of playstyles. It’s unavoidable, but it’s not that fun usually. The less lag I have, the better the matches are, mostly because the game gets closer and closer to the game I liked playing offline. I’m not saying you shouldn’t use “X” character, or use “X” moves, I’m just saying if your whole playstyle is “X” character doing “X” moves over and over, ones that give you an unusual advantage, it can lose some of it’s luster. Sure I can adapt and get around it, but eh, I just don’t have as much fun having to work around the lag, on top of fighting to get around tactics based on exploiting it.

There is a reason why if a lagless arcade online experience was out there everyone would jump into it, the lag hurts the overall fun of the game, and people using tactics that are built on the concept of exploiting this part of the game that differs from the offline version (the kind that was never intended, and thus the games weren’t balanced correctly for it) can vastly hurt how much fun the game is.

So I play, I accept the fact that people will abuse lag, and I’m not saying it isn’t any fun, it would just be much more fun if lag was less a part of the whole experience, and lag tactics just maximize the whole lag experience.


#12

First off, I said ggs cause I say that to everyone I play out of respect for taking the time to play me. Im not an ungrateful prick like you.

Second, know the difference between ‘mashing’ and trying to hit/throw you out of combos. Am I just supposed to sit there while youre throwing your combo out, not thinking that you just might miss an input? Just cause you cant land your combos cause of what little lag there was, dont take it out on me. Sometimes I cant throw out 360’s, but Id NEVER blame the other person or lag on it. Thats just childish.

Third, just change your name to Emo already, it would suit you a lot better. :tup:


#13

Lol!

That is completely asinine.

“Anything goes” is a ridiculous policy that completely disregards the conditions of play under which a game was designed. That’s like saying that it’s perfectly acceptable to look at everyone’s cards in online poker because you found a way to hack the server.

I have tested using keyboard macros in Kaillera, and it works – usually rather well. I can execute long combos (theoretically an infinite) with the press of a button.

The release of Hyper Fighting on XBox 360 has been long delayed precisely because its makers are attempting to address lag and delay issues. Does anyone in his right mind have any doubt that the game would die a quick and well-deserved death if they released it as-is?

Why were the WW Guile handcuffs removed? Why didn’t Capcom put the Zangief magic grab into every version after Super? Why was the potential for an Alex Valle “kill 'em if they stand up” custom combo axed in Alpha 3? Because they break the system.

Really, this isn’t even worth discussing.


#14

Emil,

I doubt you’ve somehow listened in on my AIM and in-game Kaillera chats with people. You don’t know what I’m saying to people.

Your attitude is NOT constructive, despite your wanting it to be. It’s malicious, and I’d be surprised if you speak to people in that manner face to face. If you do, I doubt you have friends.
Why do I behave the way I do? Because this is a community. If you think you got to the petty level you’re at right now by yourself, you’re mistaken.

Since you can’t wrap your mind around explaining lag tactics, then try the other question I’ve repeatedly asked.

How is someone supposed to play online?

I don’t expect you to answer, and, again, I’m not saying you should change your style or mindset (although I recommend it). I’m just trying to understand where you’re coming from. But if you expect to toss around childish insults and you want people to listen. PLEASE do not bother. Your comments are such a stain in this community. You have just as much right to speech as us, but you’re seriously wasting your time if you cannot even explain yourself.

MiloDC
It’s our jobs as competitors to do what we can until it is fixed in one way or another. Handcuffs were banned, and macros can be easily defined and banned as well. VC and roll cancel wasn’t ever banned, it changed those games a lot, but… they could have easily been banned. Game play would have changed accordingly. By not looking for the best tactic, you’re settling for less. Under which a game was designed? Everything we’re doing is only executable in-game. We go into an online game knowing of the varying input delay and lag. In fact, I go in knowing I could be playing against autofire or macro users. To be honest, I don’t really care. Combos are impressive, but it’s my view that execution is an unfortunate hurdle that imposes on the mindgames I enjoy. If a ‘game breaking’ tactic was allowed, would you not use it? If not, then where do you draw the line? What if some could get around the game breaking tactic, but you couldn’t?
Not worth discussing? Why’d you open your mouth, then? If HF was released, it would be the designer’s fault, right? It’s never the gamer’s fault, in fact, it’s their duty to break open all games if they want to be the best.


#15

“Thanks for playing” and “Good games” are two different things…you should have said the former if that’s what you meant.

No matter what I was doing, you were constantly trying to hit between it. That isn’t exactly how a high level player would handle it. Just a word of advice…constantly hitting buttons while someone is doing a combo or attack string would usually get you hit more and more - this is why you were constantly getting hit by the Terry guard crush strings. Occasionally, depending on the attack string I use, you will be able to mash or throw me out of it if I mess up, but more often than not, it will get you hurt even more…so if you want to get better, you should avoid mashing at those times.

But if it really was the other person, or the lag, then why would you NOT mention it? Why do you expect everyone to just stay silent…and even worse, most noobs stay as noobs because they don’t even realize what they are doing sometimes works because of the lag. Someone needs to remind them that their fighting style is just a fluke that sometimes works due to lag.


#16

Emil,
that’s just the nature of Garou. If you’re in block stun, often it’s often smart to mash a quick move or especially a throw. Why? Because if you’re in block stun, nothing will come out, but because of the intense buffering in that game, stuff will come out when you need it. Any big break in the string was your fault. Any small break would yield you some benefits. Any good Tizok i’ve played will abuse LP.

Not how a high level player would handle it? You have no idea.

How could it be the other person? That doesn’t make sense. Are you saying that they only won because they tried?
Do you really believe that it’s IMPOSSIBLE that someone might be good offline and they’re abusing the lag to win because it’s there?


#17

I’ve never heard of high level players mashing during someone’s combos and attack strings, since it’s so risky. The only time it would make sense to do this is if you have a move with invincibility. But at the same time, it is not common to even see a high level match with such a situation, since most people do not mess up hteir combos and attack strings in the arcade. And here’s one obvious reason why it’s bad. I do a jump in D, and then I do nothing…and then I see the guy mash out a fast dp+P, which means free combo for me. It is not logical to take such a risk in high level play. Also, I run into noobs who always somehow get counterhit between my attack strings (especially in kof). They just don’t stop mashing…and then they drop, thinking I was cheap somehow. Here’s another example of how it would get you killed - doing a weak attack into a strong attack, where the opponent mashers after the weak attack and gets nailed by the strong attack + combo.

Edit: Abusing Tizoc crouch A may be good, but not during people’s attack strings, it’s obviously too slow.

Why are you talking about winning again? Where did I say I lost. I don’ tunderstand your point anyway.

Err, I mentioned that yes, it is possible…I mentioned this when replying to Nagata’s post. However, this is very rare…


#18

You have to be kidding me, how many people say “thanks for playing” in comparison to those that say “ggs”?

You must consider yourself a high level player then, right? If so, then why not accept that arcade match from Nagata? Or better yet, show all us Garou players just how high level you are and join the tournament in a couple weeks. Put your money where your mouth is for once. Show us youre as good as you say/THINK you are.

Here you go again, if someones style is working due to lag, then YOU need to learn how to deal with that. Why is that so goddamn hard for you to understand? And why is it that you are the only one that bitches about this problem, and no one else?


#19

Wow; how you can use the word “assinine” and then make a post like this is beyond me. You’ve somehow managed to fuse “exploting the engine” with “extra options that aren’t in the game.” Exploiting a 1/4 second differential IN GAME that can be used by BOTH players is not the same as one guy adding on an autofire. There is no autofire offline. The same lag tactics that people complain about can be used offline. The difference is that the probability of them working significantly drops off. There is no autofire offline. There is no keyboard mapping offline.

Also, if you’re going to site examples, at least get your shit straight. The examples you listed were removed as a means of balancing future installments. Why do you think that people shit on Alpha 3 Upper? Because Capcom decided to tinker with a formula that the community accepted. Whether they like Valle’s Ryu VC didn’t matter. It was an exploitable feature within the game, open to all who wanted to learn it. There was no macro feature. There was no button mapping. It was an exploitable feature, not a broken add on.


#20

Arguing against laughable positions is fun.

“Our jobs”? What are you talking about? No one pays me to play on Kaillera.

Why ban them? They’re in the game, right? It’s just someone taking advantage of the situation.

That you are trying to have it both ways demostrates that your position is completely untenable.

Again, you are picking and choosing. Why allow VC and roll cancel, but not macros?

If some people think it’s cool to exploit an inequity in someone else’s connection, that’s fine, but I don’t see how that makes their position official in any way at all. The issue of this thread is whether it’s acceptable to take advantage of something that breaks a game’s system. If you find that kind of thing acceptable, fine, but you can’t have it both ways. If I beat you with keyboard macros, autofire, packet spamming, etc., then you have to acknowledge that I am a better player than you, because you have put yourself into that “anything goes” set.

If I take all your money in online poker because I can download your hands, you have to admit that I am the better online poker player.

No, I’m just drawing the line at what I consider a system-breaker. If you want to play poker with people who can see your cards, go right ahead. That’s not my bag, though, and I think that anyone who does is being stupid (or stubborn).

The simple answer to that is that I never use system-breaking tactics. If you’re cool with stepping outside the system, then I can think of all kinds of ways to win a game, if all you care about is winning. Macros and autofire are the tip of the iceberg. You act like you’re playing for money, or your life.

I play a game to play the game, not to see how I can win the game by exploiting extra-system advantages. Anyone who does otherwise isn’t even playing the game, he’s just inventing his own version of it to compensate for his feeble aptitude, like some kid playing Uno who makes up his own special rules. I think this thread is really about people who aren’t skilled enough to win without stepping outside the system, all attempting to validate their cheats (and therefore their wins) to the community.

Who cares? Anyone who’s using system-breaking tactics isn’t playing the same game I’m playing.