Comprehensive list of changes to Gen

gen

#1

Updates:
5/2- Crane c.MK projectile invincibility, thanks to rez4frederick and Thebook.
4/30- Included some additional info from street11.

The other topic was (and still is) more of a SSF4 discussion thread. This thread is meant to be a reference for anyone that just wants to know what’s so different about him now.

Thanks to street11, rez4frederick, Thebook24, Redwolfx and Apricator for some additions/corrections.

Summary of major changes:
-Some normals have much better frame advantage for some new links and strings, or better startup/recovery.
-All waterfall kicks are now throw-invincible, EX version is fully strike invincible as well. LK version is faster and has a better hitbox.
-HP hands can be super-canceled through all 4 hits, making combos into super much easier.
-Crane c.MK now has some projectile invincibility, easily going under most fireballs.
-Crane anti-air super is now almost instant. It’s a lot like Hakan’s AA ultra, except it can grab you at a good distance.

-Jumps have higher/farther arcs, and they went from the fastest in the game to average speed.
-Mantis s.MK range nerfed, now roughly the same range as c.MP.
-Due to increased pushback and the range nerf, MK hands loops are gone and MK hands sweep is gone. They’re still possible off EX hands, but it’s barely worth it.
-EX wall dive lost its strike invincibility.
-Special moves build MUCH less meter, about 30% less in crane and 60% less in mantis.
-FADC combos are less useful, since they don’t rebuild as much meter.
-Most crossup wall dive setups are gone.
-A few damage nerfs to normals usually used in combos.

-Wall dives are faster, but they’re still horribly unsafe on block.
-Still no alpha chains.
-Parry glitch is still in.
-Landing frame glitch is still in (aerial stance changes don’t take effect immediately when you land).

Way too detailed change list.

Basics:
-Back dash is actually better, he now goes straight from invincibility frames to airborne frames.
-Crane jump is now 36 frames airborne (same as Ryu). Used to be 33.
-Mantis jump is now 35 frames airborne. Used to be 32.
I know 3 frames doesn’t sound like a lot, but the difference between Ryu and Bison is only 4 frames. Higher jump arcs mean Gen can’t hit people so early in his jump either, which was a big part of the reason it was so difficult to AA him in vanilla. The jump arcs effectively make deep jump-ins easier though, which makes a jump fierce/roundhouse to ultra easier and stance change combos on landing slightly easier.

Specials:

Hands:
-HP hands pushback increased, now slightly farther than MP hands. Links afterward are no longer possible unless you use EX hands.
-HP hands and EX hands now hit on the 3rd frame (they were 4 frames previously)
-HP and EX hands can now be super canceled/FADCed on the first 4 hits, LP and MP hands on the first 2 hits. (All versions could only be canceled on the first hit before)
-Hitting someone with hands used to build 70 meter, now it builds ~30.

Waterfall Kick:
-All versions now throw invincible
-EX version is strike invincible to at least the first active frame.
-LK version is 5 frames now, strike invincible for the first 3?
-LK and EX versions have a better hitbox for combos/grounded opponents. HK and MK versions are worse for combos.
-Hitting someone with a full HK Gekiro used to build a whopping 176 meter, now it’s ~63. For comparison, Ryu’s jab DP builds 70 meter.

Roll:
-Last hit now does 60/65/70 damage, depending on strength. All versions did 80 before.
-Does less stun. Mid-roll hits now do 20 stun, last hit does 80. All hits were 50 stun before. (A full HP roll used to do 250 stun, now it’s 160.)
-EX version does the same damage and stun as HP roll in vanilla.
-Used to build 85 meter for a light roll, and 105 for a fierce roll. Now it’s about ~56 and ~72
-While the charge time is the same, certain combos into the roll are easier or more difficult than before due to the changes in his jumps and the speed of some normals.

Wall Dive:
-EX wall dive lost its strike invincibility, retains fireball/throw invincibility.
-All wall dives now travel faster and leave the wall/ceiling faster.
-Still very unsafe on block.
-Most of the old standard crossup wall dive setups, where you just had to get the spacing right and Gen would fly over the opponent to land on the back of their head, are gone. The hitbox was changed, so now Gen falls onto the back of their head harmlessly. Crossup wall dives aren’t completely gone, but they are much less common.
-Used to build 30 meter for doing a dive kick, and 90 more for hitting. Now it’s 30/50.

Supers:
-Both supers now do 20 more damage.
-Crane super is now 2 frames, down from 11. Really good as an anti-air now, and it can even work if they’re jumping backwards.
-Mantis super now recovers faster after it hits, which seems like a necessary change so mantis U2 could combo fully. It can cause problems against characters that flip back over Gen when they’re in the corner, though.

Ultras:
-Old ultras seem unchanged.
-New touch of death ultra deals gray damage. If the opponent doesn’t have enough life to take full gray damage, it will begin subtracting from their actual health. It can KO, but it basically needs to take off twice the opponent’s remaining health. Combos fully after a super (do it early) and against large characters after EX hands.
-Dive kick ultra can be done off a jump in any direction (as long as you’re in crane) and it MUST be blocked high. Combos after a deep wall dive.

Mantis Normals:
Frame advantage listed as on block/on hit.
-s.LP: 25 damage, +3/+5, 11 frames total (was 30 damage, -1/+1, 15 frames total)
-s.MP: 55 damage, +5/+6, 16 frames total (was 70 damage, +2/+6, 22 frames total)
-Far s.MP: Also 55 damage, +5/+6, 16 frames total (was 80 damage, -1/0, 22 total)
-s.HP: 70,40 damage (was 80,60)
-Close s.LK: 40 damage (was 30)
-Far s.LK: Unchanged.
-s.MK: Range reduced by almost 1.5 training mode squares. Now 60 damage, -2/-1, 24 frames total (was 70, -2/+2, 27 total)
-s.HK: Unchanged.

-c.LP: 20 damage, +2/+5, 12 frames total (was 30 damage, +1/+4, 13 total)
-c.MP: Unchanged.
-c.HP: Unchanged.
-c.LK: 4 frame startup, +1/+4, 13 total (was 5 frame startup, -1/+2, 16 total)
-c.MK: -3/-1, 23 frames total (was +1/+3, 26 total)
-c.HK: 85 damage, 100 stun, -7 on block, 32 frames total (was 100 damage, 200 stun, -13 on block, 38 frames total)

-j.LK: Always 50 damage (was 40 for diagonal jump, 30 for neutral jump)

**
Crane normals:**
-s.LP: -4/-2 (was -3/-1)
-s.MP: 18 frame startup, 43 frames total (was 23 startup, 48 total)
-s.HP: 17 frame startup, 41 frames total (was 22 startup, 46 total)
-s.LK: -3/-2, 24 frames total (was -2/-1, 23 total)
-s.MK: 100 damage (was 80)
-s.HK: 70,50 damage, first hit now causes knockdown vs. airborne opponents, second hit now has pursuit property (old damage was 80,70)

-c.LP: 0/+3, 14 frames total (was -2/+1, 16 total)
-c.MP: 70 damage, -3/-1, 21 total (was 90 damage, -10/-8, 28 frames total)
-c.HP: Now downs the opponent on counter-hit. Pursuit is possible, but not practical outside of the corner. Also, Gen now takes an additional 50% damage when he’s counterhit out of crane c.HP. He effectively suffers 87.5% extra damage when he eats a counterhit, instead of the standard 25%.
-c.LK: Unchanged.
-c.MK: Has partial projectile invincibility from frame 1 through most of the recovery. Range increased by roughly 1 training mode square.
-c.HK: -16/-12, 38 total (was -21/-17, 43 total)

-Diagonal j.MK: 70 damage (was 80)


#2

And just to emphasize something that’s going to be missed by a lot of people:

My Gen right now basically consists of this: jab jab strong strong jab strong jab kara throw jab jab jab strong etc zzz…


#3

Thanks for your dedication to Gen Yeb, Redwolfx and Apricator. If I notice any thing I’ll add. This is a great start.


#4

Epic post Yeb! Very much appreciated.
Something I’m excited about is both Mantis & Crane c.HP have the same damage as before. Considering everyone’s damages have been dropped that means these are even more powerful by comparison. Both of these normals are a big part of my game.

EX Oga & Waterfall kicks having throw invincibility is a plus too. Most of my EX Oga use was to escape grapplers so having that, plus a better Waterfall kick makes me less worried about the EX Oga nurf. Not to mention better backdash!

Now if only they’d release Super on PC I could start owning bitches!

-Bean


#5

Awzum List

Thank you = )

//edit, maybe send it to eventhubs aswell to give the community a clear view on the new “Gen”^^


#6

Thanks for your hard work Yeb

I played Gen is also mainly like that too when I first got Super.
However I’'ve been using KKK normals much more. Such as st.LK, st.MK, LP Jyasen and cr.fierce its new speed makes it much easier to use. (I’m just trying to draw inspiration for Leonhard and DARK.)
My strategy is still the same, forcing my opponent into playing footsies with my spacing.
The spacing is still similar to the SF4 Gen.

I was getting reversal DP’d after an opponent blocked my Crane s.tLP

I thought I was crazy this confirms I am not.

Crane normals:
-s.LP: -4/-2 (was -3/-1)

:frowning:

WTF Reversal a jab.


#7

Thanks for the time and patience it took to write this information.

Yeah, I was getting DP’ed after a blocked Crane st. wp. in SF4, but now they have made this move MORE USELESS than Crane st. wk, WTF!


#8

Praise Yeb!

I really appreciate the normal section.


#9

All my respects for your hard work Yeb.

I’m afraid I absolutely don’t see a point of crane s.LK getting nerfed. Like… did anyone use crane s.LK in vanilla, ever, not by accident?


#10

Crane c.MK goes under fireballs if you are close enough to character. I don’t remember if that was in Vanilla. It seems like that move is alot faster now too?


#11

yeah big thanks for taking the time to dissect the new frame data on all these moves, i knew crane c.mp felt faster.


#12

Man, thanks so much for the normal frames. I’ve been sleeping restlessly the past couple of days wondering what’s safe on block.


#13

Crane S.MK does more damage than Mantis C.HK sweep?
interesting…


#14

Wait, so Ex Oga isn’t completely useless if you can still escape from command throws then?


#15

u could also dash - meterless.


#16

Yeb MAJOR THANKS for this. Christ, st.mp is +5 ON BLOCK now?!?!?!? I glanced over your list a day or so ago, but I dunno why I didn’t realize the implication of that. That’s fucking awesome.


#17

Thanks for the list Yeb. I got a cool vid of you beating up a Dhalsim player saved in my replays :slight_smile:

I’d be interested in starting a replay room with you and a few other Gen on XBL. Can I add you?


#18

Finally, I’m playing.

  1. Crane j.LP now does 50 damage (I think it did 40 or so in vanilla)
  2. Even some difficult Oga cross-up setups (such as forward grab -> HK Oga to the front wall -> Near Kick) are gone. Now the mentioned setup will hit opponent in front AND land in front, regardless of timing.
  3. Crane c.MK seems to have slightly more range (very little), now I’m hitting where I used to whiff, but he can’t still hit with his toes.
  4. Mantis s.MK has definitely less range, I’m whiffing where I used to hit (which I used to compare with crane s.MP range)
  5. Due to Mantis s.MP’s recovery, cross-up j.MK -> Mantis s.MP -> Crane s.MP xx LP roll is out, unless it’s an obvious deep cross-up.
  6. Some new standard Oga cross-up setups are up:
    a. KKK U2 -> Front wall LK Oga Far Kick
    b. PPP U2 -> Front wall MK Oga Far Kick
  7. Getting countered by the opponent during crane c.HP start-up will net you approximately 88% more damage (used to be standard counter bonus of 25% more damage), stun bonus stays the same.

Standard cross-up setups works against Ryu, can’t guarantee on characters like Honda or blanka.


#19

**Compiled ****Frame Data for Gen **

Start Up| Active | Recovery | on Block | on Hit

Mantis
LP (Close) 3 | 2 | 7 | 3 | 5
MP (Close) 4 | 5 | 8 | 5 | 6
HP (Close) 5 | 6 | 17 | -3 | 1
LK (Close) 5 | 4 | 13 | -4 | -2
MK (Close) 5 | 3 | 17 | -3 | -1
HK (Close) 8 | 2 | 20 | -4 | 0
LP (Crouching) 4 | 2 | 7 | 2 | 5
MP (Crouching) 7 | 4 | 11 | -1 | 1
HP (Crouching) 7 | 4 | 19 | -5 | -1
LK (Crouching) 4 | 2 | 8 | 1 | 4
MK (Crouching) 7 | 3 | 14 | -3 | -1
HK (Crouching) 8 | 3 | 22 | -7 |
LP (Jump) 4 | 7 | | |
MP (Jump) 5 | 5 | | |
HP (Jump) 6 | 4 | | |
LK (Jump) 5 | 8 | | |
MK (Jump) 4 | 8 | | |
HK (Jump) 6 | 3 | | |
Change Style | | | |
LP Hyakurenko 5 | | 17 | -3 | 9
MP Hyakurenko 4 | | 17 | 5 | 9
HP Hyakurenko 3 | | 17 | 5 | 9
EX Hyakurenko 3 | | 17 | 5 | 9
LK Gekiro 5 | 15 | 22 | -35 |
MK Gekiro 7 | 15 | 25 | -35 |
HK Gekiro 7 | 15 | 26 | -35 |
EX Gekiro 7 | 15 | 26 | -35 |
Zanei 1+5 | 16 | 66 | -61 |
Zetsuei 1+10 | 11 | 59 | -48 |
Shitenketsu 1+8 | 2(6)2(6)2(6)2 | 33 | -10 |

Crane
LP (Close) 4 | 3 | 12 | -3 | -2
MP (Close) 18 | 4 | 22 | -3 | 1
HP (Close) 17 | 6 | 19 | -5 | 0
LK (Close) 8 | 4 | 13 | -3 | -2
MK (Close) 7 | 4 | 22 | -5 | -1
HK (Close) 5 | 3(9)2 | 22 | -6 | -2
LP (Crouching) 4 | 2 | 9 | -2 | 3
MP (Crouching) 5 | 4 | 13 | -10 | -8
HP (Crouching) 21 | 5 | 16 | -3 | -1
LK (Crouching) 5 | 6 | 16 | -8 |
MK (Crouching) 8 | 3 | 21 | -3 | -1
HK (Crouching) 5 | 3 | 31 | -21 | -17
LP (Jump) 4 | 7 | | |
MP (Jump) 4 | 5 | | |
HP (Jump) 5 | 7 | | |
LK (Jump) 4 | 9 | | |
MK (Jump) 4 | 6 | | |
HK (Jump) 6 | 3 | | |
Change Style | | | |
Shakudan | 2 | | |
LP Jyasen 6 | 3(5)1(5)4 | 20 | -3 | 1
MP Jyasen 6 | 3(7)3(11) | 1(5)4 | 20 | -3 | 1
HP Jyasen 6 | 3(7)3(12) | 3(11)1(5)4 | 20 | -3 | 1
EX Jyasen 6 | 3(7)3(12) | 3(11)1(5)4 | 20 | -3 | 1
Oga | | | |
EX Oga | | | |
Sudden Stop | | 16 | |
Close Kick 13 | | 13 | |
Far Kick 12 | | 13 | |
Ceiling Jump | | | |
Falling Kick 3 | | 13 | |
Close Range Kick Right 3 | | 13 | |
Close Range Kick Left 3 | | 13 | |
Jyakoha 1+1 | 19 | 32 | |
Ryukoha 1+10 | 8 | 53 | |
Teiga 1+9 | 18 | 26 | |


#20
  1. Nah, it always did 50.
  2. They changed the hitboxes really bad, yeah.
    3 and 4. Oh man, I felt something was off with his footsie/zoning game but couldn’t say exactly what. The nerf to s.MK is massive, it’s almost the exact same range as mantis c.MP now. That really hurts. Thanks a lot for finding that, I’m putting it with the major changes at the top. You’re right about crane c.MK too.
  3. I never used that combo, but I’ll include a note about charge times for the roll.
  4. I couldn’t get the second setup to work very well, but the first one’s reliable, nice find. I didn’t intend for this topic to become a compilation of new tricks though.
  5. Once again, thanks for the info. It seems that Gen actually takes 50% more damage during crane c.HP startup, and then that increased number suffers the 25% counterhit bonus - in other words, 87.5% total. That seems most consistent with the rounding.

It’s so nice to see other people testing stuff and getting good results.

Thanks, but that’s from sfframedata.com, right? Those numbers aren’t accurate. The most obvious error is the crane c.MP right there.