Concept: Parry Guard (comments wanted)


#1

Working on a Fighting Game for a personal project at the moment and was working on the game’s system. I wanted to get some input about just one of the things that is being worked on so that I can see the views on it and possibly see problems with it as to keep the feature, improve/fix or scrap it.

Basically implementing the Parry ability to a Guard Bar, so that Parrying isn’t too abused. A problem that a lot of players seem to have with 3S is that the ability to Parry has much stronger reward than risk. Parry Guard system would act as a Guard Break where stuns are absent, but guard breaking has stronger presence. Parrying would eat away the most on your Guard Bar as Parrying does take energy and that energy needs to be taken from somewhere. It shouldn’t be free and it shouldn’t be taking away from your health, so the best place to take that damage is in the form of a passive feature, being the Guard Bar.

In general the Parry Guard would work something like this (actual amounts are going to be worked out during balance testing):

  • Bar recovers gradually at about 10% per second.
  • Normal Attacks : LP/LK (1%), MP/MK (3%), HP/RH (5%)… actual values pending
  • Special Attacks : LP/LK (5%), MP/MK (10%), HP/RH (15%)… actual values pending
  • Supers will be determined by the type of super. It will vary depending on the purpose of the Super itself.
  • The person parrying will take off 25% or less, actual values pending for balance testing.
  • Bar depletion results in a 1 second stun from normal move break, 2 second stun from special move break and 3 second stun from Super move breaks.
  • In the case of bar depletion while parrying, you will still be able to parry, but you will risk being guard brokenas guard will stay at 0 until parrying ends.

As a standalone feature (not including other features that will assist players in guard break strings). This feature does make it so that ranged characters have a certain advantage, but that’s on the balance of the character itself which will take work as well. Right now, pretending that striking a balance of characters where ranged character have low priority and slow close combat moves, mid range characters work best at a certain range, mainly outside of throw range and close combat characters who are only good at close combat, but have high mobility to get into range. In the perfect world, characters will have strengths and weaknesses. Also characters cannot be killed by chip damage, but there will be more than just guard breaking to get through a block (throws and another option called block lifting that is something else being worked on as well).

I found that offense is more of a focus when the Guard Bar is present and makes the game much more dynamic offensively. The stun makes it so that characters like Makoto can literally do 1 long combo and kill people given the situation (which isn’t really all that hard to get into in 3S in that case). Guard breaking allows you to punish turtlers and encourages more offensive play. GGX series does this well, but I enjoy more of the traditional format (without the air dashing and double jumping stuff).

The system isn’t very original and it’s just a modification of something existing (like pretty much everything else). Right now since there isn’t a playable product yet, I can’t exactly ask people to test it for me, but theory fighter is good to see if the feature is even worth the time to work on and program or just spend time on something better.

Anyways, any form of comment welcome as long as there is reason to it (I don’t mind “It Sucks”, but include why). Just hoping for some good brain food. What would you rather have and theory fighter with existing games works as well to bring in your point if you are trying to make one.


#2

Sounds like a sound idea to me, just wondering though would this version of parry be in addition to other methods of avoiding moves? (Dodge, roll, etc) It may be something that’s great, but in addition to other movement methods may just be moot since people will just save parries for things that are sure parries, and supers when they have no other choice, and will roll/dodge/etc anything else.


#3

i dont know about the 25 percent off parrying…thats alot…so its kinda like if the opponent is attackin then you are blockin and then you decide to parry one of his moves you could be guard crushed so the parry wouldnt matter…am i on the right track??? it would be cool to beta test that to see if it would work.


#4

^Yeah, I know what you mean. In this case it’s going to be a decider between what’s more important… Losing a pixel of health or 25% of your guard meter. It might be a better idea to have a seperate meter for deffensive and technical manouvers; doing so would force you to work for that ability and also ensure it isn’t abused.

Although it depends on what style of game it is, whether it’s a combo and guard string frenzy like Marvel or Guilty Gear, or a slower paced technical game like 3rd Strike.


#5

If this is implemented, then, I think, parrying should be made slightly easier. Add a couple frames of timing into the mix, allow parrying after the super-flash and the guard bar implementation. I believe, in your current system, risk combined with removing the guard meter creates too high of a risk v. reward ratio. Hence, people just won’t use it.


#6

I think that you shouldn’t be able to guard break yourself via a parry. For instance if you parry while your meter is almost 0, it just goes down to 0 (or below 0!) and you would get broken on the next block, however if you are able to keep parrying moves you wouldn’t get guard broken…

If you can’t parry with 0 meter than your still in a near-garunteed guard break situation, that seems a little harsh. I’m fine with just letting them try to parry everything if they want with no guard meter.


#7

This would only be cool if there was some sort of massive scaling on each consecutive parry, like damage scaling on the life bar–maybe the first parry takes off a big chunk, the second takes off a small chunk, the third a sliver, then the rest almost nothing, or what have you. This way, successfully parrying a move with a shitload of hits doesn’t get punished the same as simply doing one or two parries at a time. I think if somebody is capable of pulling off a Daigo-esque full parry, they deserve to reap the benefits.


#8

Yeah, that’s what I was thinking, because if you parry a string of attacks any more than four you’re guard broken.

What if it worked similar to the way burst does in Guilty Gear, or the change aspect in KoF03? Instead of making them free, make it so once you’ve parried, or a string of parries you can’t do so for a limited amount of time. Because like KyPeN said it has a too high risk vs reward ratio. Parry + deal damage = danger… Also block + lose guard meter = danger. There needs to be some form of reward to make it worth while.


#9

Yeah I agree with this.

This would only work if parrying has a whiff animation, otherwise it essentially means that when you’re at low guard bar, parrying rather than blocking becomes a 0 risk move (because if you don’t parry you’re gonna get fucking guard broken anyway, so why not go crazy with the trying to parry?), meaning the game just becomes a 50/50 mixup for control of the match.

Another problem with your idea is that it could be too easy to accidentally parry in a situation where you really don’t want to sacrifice the guard bar. Again, parrying needs to be a command (e.g. towards/down+LP+LK) with a whiff animation for this to really work. Although if you have a whiff animation if you miss AND lose guard bar if you succeed (especially if you lose 25%), that might actually weaken parry too much.

What I’d propose is to have a parry whiff animation, and have each successful parry use the same amount of guard bar as blocking the parried hit would’ve caused you to lose. Allow the player to parry at 0 guard bar That way parrying always has a definite advantage over blocking, but you can’t attempt to parry like crazy because you’ll do a whiff animation and get hit. It also solves the problem goodm0urning mentioned, because presumably guard damage would scale anyway given that otherwise a 14 hit blocked super or whatever would destroy your guard bar.

I dunno, maybe this is still too extreme, and really all parry needs is a whiff animation to balance it :stuck_out_tongue:


#10

Good comments so far for such a young thread.

I like the points made on after parrying, but the reason for that was to make sure people did go parrying entire lengths of anything. I myself am not a fan of multi-hit auto combo supers (though a single attack that does multiple hits is a different story) and so I opted the “if you parry, make sure you can punish option”. The characters designed right now do not have auto-combo type attacks or supers.

As with the way I planned out the values, Parrying is a much stronger option than Blocking. You parry so that you can retaliate, so in turn Parrying rewards you with Opportunity. Whether you take advantage of it or not is up to you (or rather if the character has the option to do so). The damage values will probably be tweaked to each individual move later, but as a base they serve their purpose well. Parry costs a lot to use, but think of it this way. It takes 1 second to recover 10% of your bar. You parry and you retaliate, you lose 25%, but the opponent getting knocked away/down grants you a free second, 10% recovered PLUS you are on the offense so you don’t really lose that much in the end. The big issue comes down to multiple parries, but I have made it clear that you cannot die from chip damage so you shouldn’t be forced to parry unless you are block lifted (unexplained option, but basically it’ll be a slow move with Dust type properties in GGX that knocks an opponent into the air slightly like a reset state where you can juggle them before they hit the ground if your character is fast enough to take advantage of, no super jumping red screen crap, just a quick get out of block option… but that’s not something i need discussed right now) in which you are forced to parry.

As with changing the parry option and timing, that will be up to testing as speed of the game matter a lot in frame timing and deciding a suitable number of frame leniency to parry is important. Probably somewhere between 3S and CVS2 P-Groove as I find 3S is a bit too lenient and you can parry stuff long after you tap forward. Whiff animation for a parry is too much and would ruin the parry option, Last Blade 2 had parry assigned to a button and though it was fine the way it worked, I felt it wasn’t really intuitive enough. I liked the 3S method much more personally.

Also to address a certain issues:

**Q: Sounds like a sound idea to me, just wondering though would this version of parry be in addition to other methods of avoiding moves? (Dodge, roll, etc)

A:** There are no other universal evasive optoins. If there were to be, they’d be character specific and most likely move specific.

**Q: i dont know about the 25 percent off parrying…thats alot…so its kinda like if the opponent is attackin then you are blockin and then you decide to parry one of his moves you could be guard crushed so the parry wouldnt matter…

A:** I can understand where you, KyPeN and others are coming from. 25 does seem like a high value and will probably be changed later on. In the most extreme cases, 25% will be the highest value for Parrying, but that will change as it gets tested.

**Q: It might be a better idea to have a seperate meter for deffensive and technical manouvers…

A:** At first I though this could be an option, but the simpleness of the interface is important. When you have too many bars, it clutters the screen and makes things difficult to track. Life bar, Meter and Guard Bar (for both players) is enough to worry about.

**Q: What I’d propose is to have a parry whiff animation, and have each successful parry use the same amount of guard bar as blocking the parried hit would’ve caused you to lose.

A:** I see this proposed a lot and one thing I will stand by is this answer. I will NEVER give parry a whiff animation in any fighting game I have authority in. It doesn’t balance parry, but makes the option less useful. Parrying has a risk now and that was the point of integrating it into the Guard Bar. Would you rather parry or block? If you parry a lot, you WILL get guard broken because I have yet to meet a human player good enough to parry EVERYTHING.

Also changes I feel are good so far thanks to FMJaguar for pointing out is the ability to parry after hitting 0 on the guard bar. That actually solves many problems with the reward vs risk system as parrying will be if you put yourself into the position, you will continue to have to rely on it. The recovery rate will probably have to be reworked, but the recovery rate seems sound to me at the moment. goodm0urning also had a good suggestion involving guard bar scaling on which doesn’t sound too difficult to change and also sounds better than reducing solid points all the way to 0. Having the ability to fallback on a block if anything is important as well so I don’t see much of a problem with having your Guardbar scale by taking off 25% of your current existing bar doesn’t seem so bad.

Not sure if I missed any posts, but my thoughts right now are as such. I was thinking of also allowing special moves to help recover your guard bar as well so that if you parry and go back on the offense, you can recover some bar. Most likely though there will be a cap to how much you gain before you don’t gain anymore (probably between 25% if anything).


#11

Well, whatever happens, give me a shout when you want it testing…


#12

Honestly, here’s what I would do to parrying

Make it a button command instead of tapping forward with a whiff animation- if you make it where parries could be whiffed, that puts the risk into it, maybe animation similar to a missed Geese counter.

Projectiles cannot be parried- this will bring back some of the SF2 style.

Can’t parry while jumping

Do all that stuff, and parries are perfectly fine/skillful.


#13

Originally intended for projectiles and certain “energy” attacks to not be parry-able. Air parries will still exist because you can still zone outside of the fireball trap.

Working on a 6 button setup and having parry as more than a single button makes it too much of a hassle to use. 7 buttons is too many buttons.


#14

Personally, I can’t substitute parrying for blocking – and I play a LOT of 3s.

I’m surprised…


#15

If you’re going to nerf parries to the point of near-uselessness, you might as well just put in Alpha counters instead.


#16

parry is fine for the most part

if it was so broke it would be used every 5 secs in the final 8 at evo


#17

I really enjoy the parrying feature, but certain aspects of it I don’t. How do you parry a fireball? It’s difficult to put up strong arguments because certain features would work differently from game to game.

Everybody has their own opinions about this option of evasion. Some feel it’s too strong and hate, some love it because it promotes a sense of universal balance. In the end how useful this feature will be will ultimately depend on how well the characters are designed around this system.


#18

This is true.
Ever notice how most of the really balanced fighters have some sort of unique defensive manuever?

Universal techs and guard cancels in Vampire Saviour
Deflects in Last Blade 2
Just defend for Garou: MotW


#19

Check out ‘shielding’ in Melty Blood, I think it does ‘parrying’ decently.

;p


#20

Last Blade 2’s parry/deflect would probably appeal to the people who disliked the one in 3S. It had standing/crouching/jumping deflects, and a large parry window but also a longgg miss animation.