I think that Ryu vs Sim is even. I think Ryu has all the tools to play offensive as well as defensive and keep Sim honest. 5 -5; Nerfs hurt Sim more in this fight.
I think Dee Jay has a slightly better chance against Sim over Guile due to his slide and great normals. Sim can still use crouching strong but will have to trade hits. Dh 5.5 - Sa 4.5; Nerfs hurt Sim more in this fight.
Until someone can show me different I see Balrog with a 6 to 4 advantage over Sim. Sim has to guess and guess properly as well as has a very difficult time keeping Rog out. Granted both Supers were toned for both characters but this ultimately effects Sim as Balrog fills his meter very quickly allowing him to truly dictate match once he has it. Dh 4 - Ba 6; Again nerfs hurt Sim more than Rog.
I might not be the greatest Sim player but I still understand X’s and O’s.
This chart is artificially compressed. These matchups are way more lopsided. Look at the characters arranged by total points…
Vega - 83.5 <-- could use a few more points
Ryu - 83 <-- second best character? Doubtful.
Balrog - 82.5
Dee Jay - 80 <-- better than Sim? I doubt that as well.
Dhalsim - 79.5
E.Honda - 79 <-- Honda being a .5 point different than Sim…
Chun Li - 79 <-- needs to be way lower
Ken - 77
Sagat - 76.5
Guile - 76.5
Blanka - 73
Cammy - 72.5 <-- Cammy even with Dictator? Total bullshit.
M.Bison - 72.5
Fei Long4 - 68.5 <-- Fei is better than Blanka and Cammy, no way he’s this low
T.Hawk - 60
Zangief - 57 <-- I’m not convinced that Zangief is worse than Hawk or Cammy in HDR.
OMG FRACTIONS! Only Coth will be able understand this!
My thoughts on Boxer vs. X (Boxer / X)
Chun: H2O / CH3OH
Ken: 2H2+O2 -> H2O / PV=nRT
In all seriousness, I think Boxer Ken is 5-5 or even 5.5 - 4.5 in Ken’s favor. His slower fireball is harder for Boxer to get around and he can use his jab SRK or double jab SRK to cover himself better than Ryu can. Ryu’s super is dangerous, but you can see it coming, but Ken’s threat of reversal super means you can’t meaty Heabutt or Super for free. Throw loops are very difficult for Boxer to deal with unless he has super.
Feel free to point out matchup ratings that you think should be different then. These totals are merely the sum of all ratings for a given character, they’re not what I think “should” be their overall power level.
Umm… what’s with all the Cammy hate? I know you love to talk ST and O / N this and that… but Remix Cammy is superior to her either of her ST counterparts. I mean if you’re talking about the overall place in tier rankings… maybe I see your point, but I think if you decide to group them without specific numbers you’re still going to say that your “low tier” is Cammy, Fei, Hawk, Blanka, etc. So either you feel Remix Cammy isn’t as good as O/N Cammy, which I’d LOVE to hear that one, or she just somehow didn’t get as much better as the other characters you mentioned and anecdotally from people I talk to, I don’t think that’s the case either…
I mean go through the tier list and add them up. If we’re going to measure in the aggregate method, I think Cammy might be a better character than Fei or Gief or Blanka. Cammy’s problem is that the matchups she struggles with, she REALLY struggles. Think about her bad matchups, they’re not 6/4, they’re 7/3 and 8/2. That’s the knock on Cammy, she’s the reverse of Honda. Where Honda wins he REALLY wins, where Cammy loses she REALLY loses and the matches she wins are against other ‘low tier’ characters who aren’t as prevalent in tournament play further aggrevating her weaknesses in high end play. But she’s not losing (on a tier chart) against Hawk, Fei, Blanka, Zangief…
Ryu - Make it 7-3, Ryu can be beaten if you get within cr. mk range. Main problem is that you must guess correctly on opening move whether to neutral jump, drill, or hooligan.
Ken - Also 7-3, Ken’s slower fireball is good and bad for Cammy. Its harder to knuckle but easier to walk forward.
Honda - 8-2, I can barely beat average Honda’s
Chun-Li - Agreed, especially once you start crossing up
Blanka - I personally have HUGE problems with this match so I won’t comment
Zangief - I’d say 6-4. Match can be won but if you make a mistake you’re toast. 'Gief can also beat all your specials with his sweep pretty much
Guile - I’d say 7.5, this match also relies on correctly guessing your opening move. Once you’re out of range its OVER.
Dhalsim - Agreed, maybe 6-4. Can be beaten but is problematic if you’re out of range.
T-Hawk - Agreed, it gets especially easy if you’re good at reaction Thrust Kicks
Fei-Long - Totally disagree. I’d say 8-2 or 7.5-2.5 Cammy. This is my easiest matchup by far.
Dee-Jay - Agreed, though cr. mk can beat slide. Crossing up is also vital.
Balrog - I say 5-5. TAP is brutal and so is headbutt. Rushes can be beaten with cr. mk but you must be very smart.
Vega - I’d say 5-5. If you can catch Vega then its fair game.
Sagat - I’d say 5.5-4.5 for Sagat. Doing knuckles and guessing which tiger he’ll throw is hard.
Bison - At least 5-5. If you be patient and use j. mp and st. mk he can be beaten. Crossing up is vital.
My changes put Cammy at 71, though I’ll need to re-evaluate that Blanka matchup once I finally get good at it. For me personally, the match is 6-4 +Blanka.
Serious? All Sim had taken away from him was super strength damage/vulnerability and shortened noogie throw, none of which really impact this fight. Most of Rog’s special moves generate less meter, his super does less damage and his jab headbutt is no longer safe on block (probably the biggest nerf he got). If you are a zone pro with Sim, it definitely turns into ether an even fight or a .5-1.0 advantage to Sim.
MOST top tier ST characters were nerfed in HDR, and most players would prefer their ST versions on a power level.
You’re looking at HDR Claw in a vacuum. But Claw, O.Sagat, Boxer, Dhalsim, Chun Li, were all nerfed in power from ST.
In contrast, characters like Ryu and Dictator only got better.
Looking at the ST tier list as a 100% pure guide for HDR doesn’t hold up because enough of the characters have shifted from it.
When it comes to tourney play, usually the top factors in a character’s power are:
A - do they have any TERRIBLE matchups. (which can spell an auto-lose and easy counter picking)
The chart doesn’t list any matchup below a 4, which indicates Claw has no auto-lose matchup.
B - how do they matchup up vs. the top tier characters. (ones you can expect the top players to show up playing)
The chart gives Claw 7 points for his matchup vs. T.Hawk, but if you are unlikely to face him at a tourney then this number never really comes into play. (even though it was part of the total you were looking at)
I’m very serious. Again like I said show me some high quality Sim’s playing against high quality Rog’s. And just because the jab headbutt isnt safe on block doesnt mean Sim can punish it necessarily either. Do you even play Rog because I assure you he has no problem getting his meter filled even if it has been handicapped to some degree. Also Balrog can do 2 hit dizzies and can combo very well against Sim ending the match very quickly. Again if someone can show me some matches and please dont rehash Gian videos. He is not the only Sim player and he hasnt played every single Balrog player. Just saying.
well stated Zaspacer so lets take Dhalsim then using your example. It would be fair to say he could possibly play a Vega, Chun Li, Blanka, Balrog, Cammy which would mean he could have difficult matches from the get go. Sure he could face a Zangief, T.Hawk, Sagat but as you have said it might not be likely because people either wont use them or will try to counter pick you and use someone else.
Dhalsim and boxer should still be above claw if they already were in ST (which is what the top Japanese players have always indicated); it’s difficult to see how they were nerfed worse overall. I think the reason is a lot of folks docked off points here and there for minor weaknesses. Sure, I could’ve reduced claw’s lead by 0.5 points for almost every match since he loses on average at least 10% damage per round off repeated wall dives in every match but I know it doesn’t work like that in reality.
The ST tier list, while not perfectly aligned with HDR’s, is still incredibly close. The exact same players are winning with the same characters. It’s not like from CE to HF where plenty of hitboxes were changed around. HDR’s changes have been very minor.
I listed my take on the claw matchups in that tier thread (which is still accurate to how I feel) and think it’s better if every player’s views were separated to clarify where each stood. Consensus is a bit of a misnomer when it’s only the highest level play that these matchup figures are supposed to apply (and perhaps I’m wrong but I think that some opinions are based solely off online matches and those should really only apply to online play).
The concept of better characters is based off total matchup points though, which is how most folks quantify tiers. As has been brought up in the past, looking only at notably difficult matches (3-7 or lower) or keeping in mind a subset of tourney-expected characters may result in different placement valuations. But as Zangief vs. boxer indicates, it’s the actual, specific matchup that matters, not the character’s tier placement. And even more important than the matchup (except at the very peak level), it’s each player’s own skill that really determines a match’s outcome. If someone is winning 10-0, either this game is broken or there’s a difference in player skill. And everybody is on board that the game isn’t broken…
I don’t think we should be using .5’s in the match-ups.
KIDDING. Just kidding. I’m not gonna start that again.
I added a sorted version of the chart you had, Thelo, to your original post, I hope you’re okay with that. It’s always nice to be able to see how everyone places relatively with each other.
And I like that you are making the chart again. I think it’s been long enough that we can actually start getting this match-up chart a bit more ironed out. It IS odd to me to see Vega up there, but then again, I think Vega’s Wall Dive spam has ALWAYS been over exaggerated as being too powerful, and that most of his match-ups in ST have always been regardless of that trap. So nerfing that AND giving him a Fake Wall Dive really probably didn’t change his positioning much at all. Meanwhile, everyone else who was better than him got nerfed more than he did, so I can see Vega being top.
Though I have to ask: how come Bison is so low? He is really buff, and he only got better. Did everyone else just get more better than him? I don’t see him in the bottom 4 at all.
I unfortunately don’t have such a complete list of players myself. I originally took the Eventhubs matchup chart as a template, then combed over the original tier thread and individual character threads for matchup ratings to change the chart, then added my own Honda matchup opinions, all of this over a long period of time. At some point I lost the original big text file I used as a database of players’ opinions, and since then I just nudge the numbers when I get new opinions.
As for the Honda - Vega matchup, I can answer that better. It’s actually pretty unclear to me whether Honda is more advantaged in ST or HDR. Both characters lost must-reversal-or-I-lose situations (Honda’s oicho loop and Vega’s knockdown walldive loop) from ST to HDR. Honda’s HHS are faster / easier to do, but have less damage / priority. Honda has a better super in HDR, but a shorter jab headbutt + Vega’s fake walldive means that his jab headbutt can be baited in HDR (one of the few legit uses of the fake walldive, as I understand it).
The changes go both ways, but I rated the matchup as Honda 6 - 4 Vega in ST and I still rate it as Honda 6 - 4 Vega in HDR. The dynamic of the matchup has changed, for the better in my humble opinion, but the power level of each character in this matchup mostly remains the same.
Edit: jchensor, I don’t really mind having the sorted chart. The main reason why I used the character select order rather that the sorted rank order is that I intend to update the chart often, and the ratings may change the characters’ places around - and rebuilding that chart after changing rows around can get pretty long.
Yeah, I was actually guessing it was either that or that you wanted to keep it free from people assuming which character is better than others. No worries. To be honest, the easiest way to update both charts is to update one and then re-sort it again and just paste over the other one, rather than adjusting the numbers in both.
Hell, if you want, I’ll just come in and re-sort it for you from time to time. I don’t mind. :wgrin:
I think it’s even. While Sim’s short range game was nerfed, he still has his long range game, which is what he exceled at anyway. If Boxer is at full screen it is still hard for Boxer to get in. And when Boxer gets within jab Low Rush range, Sim’s cr. strong and cr. forward are still good counter pokes. As for punishing headbutts, have you tried short slide fierce throw? If that works you throw Boxer right into favorable position (for Sim).