Counter Setup Theory

juri

#1

I decided to make a new thread because the old one was pretty sketchy and had obsolete information. This one will be much cleaner and to the point.

I made a reference video for all the main counter setups I will be testing on the whole cast:

[media=youtube]jJ96jkUg3IE[/media]

The counter setups:

A) Kamikaze & Fake Kamikaze
B) Stay Down
C) Hard Stomp & Instant Hard Stomp
D) Fly With Me & Dance With Me
E) I Believe I Can Fly
F) I Believe I Can Touch The Sky
G) Gimme A Hug
H) Catch This
I) Catch Me If You Can
J) Hop & Crazy Hop
K) Midscreen OS, Corner OS and misc OS
L) Safe Jumping & Crazy Nympho
M) Fuhajin Lockdown

Most of those counter setups are accessible after all possible knockdowns (techable and untechable). They just require minor calculated adjustments.

Ideal untechable Knockdown Scenarios:

  1. Sweep (point blank)
  2. Combo into Sweep (cr.mk, M Fuhajin rel, Sweep)
  3. Back throw
  4. Forward throw (midscreen)
  5. Forward throw (corner)
  6. M Super (point blank, midscreen)
  7. close st.hp xx M Super (midscreen)
  8. H Super (corner)
  9. Ultra 2

Techable knockdown scenarios:

  1. cr.mk xx H Pinwheel
  2. cl.st.mk (one hit) xx Fuhajin Store
  3. close st.hp xx L Pinwheel
  4. H Fuhajin rel (anti-air), dash xx L Pinwheel
  5. EX Dive Kick, L Pinwheel
  6. jf.mp xx L Dive Kick (one hit)
  7. Dive Kick (two hits)

**Note: **Most techable knockdowns require the exact same timing. 2 hit Dive Kick is an exception. On a side note, H Pinwheel is the only techable knockdown that leaves Juri outside of sweep range so that knockdown requires different spacing.

Basically, if you land any of those 16 knockdowns, chances are you can follow up with a counter setup. Some counter setups are even possible after you anti-air with cr.mp or after you air reset the opponent with cl.st.lk / cl.st.lp.

Example:

Kamikaze is “rushing down and attempting to hit the waking opponent with a meaty cr.mk, cr.mp or cr.hp”.

To achieve Kamikaze, you can either:

-Dash twice after a *Sweep, Back throw, *or after most techable knockdowns (alternatively replace the 2 dashes with a Sekku or far st.hk).
-jf H Dive Kick, Dash after a midscreen forward throw
-Dash 4 times after a corner forward throw
-jf M Dive Kick, cr.hp after a point blank M Super
-jf H Dive Kick, Backdash, Dash after a cl.st.hp xx M Super (midscreen)
-Dashx2, cr.mp or nj L/M Dive Kick after an Ultra 2

So the way I’ll write that information up is like this:

(Knockdown type)
-Pre-ender inputs before ender

Then I will list my testing results like this:

Works on: Balrog ( )
Doesn’t work on: Adon ( )

In the parentheses I will specify things like: (cr.mk avoids all versions of headbutts), (you can use cr.hp or cl.st.hp instead of cr.mk) or (trades in Juri’s favor) etc.

I know this is a lot of info but you don’t need to memorize everything. Basically, you just need to understand which setups are more appropriate for each chunk of character groups.

The pre-ender inputs are just to help get the spacing and timing down. You don’t really HAVE TO know all that by heart. All you need to know is where to be when the opponent starts getting up and be aware of the main character groups (faster reversals, slower recovery etc.). Once you get used to the different characters wake up and reversal speeds it becomes easier to get the timing down.

In addition, we can categorize reversals in this way:

  1. Stationary reversals (moves like Guy’s Tornado Kick)
  2. Traveling reversals (moves like Rising Jaguar)
  3. Full Screen reversals (moves like Psycho Crusher)

And characters into these groups:

  1. Fast recovery / 3f reversals
  2. Normal recovery / 4-6f reversals
  3. Slow recovery / 7-9f reversals

That will help determine which setups, spacing and timing to use.

I’m still theorizing about this…


#2

KAMIKAZE

This is rushing down and attempting to hit the waking opponent with a meaty cr.mk, cr.mp or cr.hp. Obviously loses to strike invincible reversals but cr.mk can still avoid some airborne reversals.

[media=youtube]PzOAiCMVHbU[/media]

Ender: cr.mk, cr.mp or cr.hp

Pre-Ender Inputs:

(point blank Sweep)
(Combo into Sweep)
(Back throw)
-Dashx2
-Sekku
-Far st.hk
-far st.mpx2

(midscreen Forward throw)
-jf H Dive Kick, Dash
-Dashx4

(corner Forward throw)
-Dashx4

(H Pinwheel)
(Fuhajin Store)
(cl.st.hp xx L Pinwheel)
(jf.mp xx L Dive Kick)
(EX Dive Kick, L Pinwheel)
(AA H Fuhajin, Dash xx L Pinwheel)
-Dashx2
-Sekku
-Far st.hk
-far st.mpx2

(2 hit Dive Kick)
-Dash

(point blank M Super)
-jf.M Dive Kick, cr.hp

(cl.st.hp xx M Super)
-jf H Dive Kick, Backdash, Dash

(Ultra 2)
-Dashx2, cr.mp
-nj L/M Dive Kick

(Anti-Air cr.mp)
-Dash

Works on:

Balrog (avoids all headbutts, trades with EX dash punch)
Blanka (beats all versions of Electricity and Beast Roll, avoids or loses to Vertical Roll)
Cody (you can cr.hp, loses to Bingo)
C.Viper (beats Thunder Knuckle, loses to EX Seismo)
Guy (avoids all versions of Tornado Kick, loses to EX dash)

Variation:

FAKE KAMIKAZE

Neutral jumping instead of going for a meaty poke.

Ender: nj.hk

**Pre-End **Inputs: Same as Kamikaze

Works on:

Adon ()
Balrog ()
Chun Li ()
Cody ()

Still testing… this post will be updated with more results.


#3

this is much appreciated


#4

I BELIEVE I CAN FLY

This is trying to stuff traveling forward reversals with a jump back strong juggle.

[media=youtube]-CFsV1XoQ-k[/media]

Ender: jb.mp

**Pre-Ender Inputs: **

(point blank Sweep)
[INDENT=1]-cr.hp[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Adon (beats L/M/EX Rising Jaguar, avoids H Rising Jaguar)[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Cammy (beats H/EX Canon Spike, beats EX Spiral Arrow, beats EX Hooligan)[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Dee Jay (beats EX Double Rolling Sobat, avoids EX Jacknife Maximum)[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]E.Honda (beats all versions of Headbutt, loses to EX Butt Slam)[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]M.Bison (beats all versions of Psycho Crusher & Scissor Kick, avoids Headstomps)[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Sagat (beats M/H/EX Tiger Uppercut and H/EX Tiger Knee)[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Seth (beats H/EX Dragon Punch, avoids all versions of Spin Kicks)[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Yun (beats EX Dragon Kicks, avoids H Dragon Kicks, beats EX Lunge Punch)[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Yang (beats H/EX Roll Kick, beats EX Command Dash) [/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Hakan, T.Hawk, C.Viper, Guile (avoids their main reversals and allows a punish when juri lands before they can block)[/INDENT]

(Combo into Sweep)
(Back Throw)
[INDENT=1]-far st.mp, st.lk[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Adon (beats L/M/EX Rising Jaguar, avoids H Rising Jaguar)[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Cammy (beats all versions of Canon Spike, Spiral Arrow & Hooligan)[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]E.Honda (beats all versions of Headbutt, avoids all versions of Butt Slam)[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]M.Bison (beats all versions of Psycho Crusher & Scissor Kicks, avoids Headstomps)[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Sagat (beats M/H/EX Tiger Uppercut, beats H/EX Tiger Knee)[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Yun (beats all versions of Lunge Punch, avoids all versions of Dragon Kicks)[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Yang (beats all versions of Command Dash, loses to H/EX Roll Kick)[/INDENT]

(midscreen Forward Throw)
[INDENT=1]-Dashx3, far st.mp[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Cammy (beats all versions of Canon Spike, Spiral Arrow & Hooligan)[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]E.Honda (beats all versions of Headbutt, avoids all versions of Butt Slam)[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]M.Bison (beats all versions of Psycho Crusher & Scissor Kicks, avoids all versions of Headstomp)[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Sagat (beats M/H/EX Tiger Uppercut, beats H/EX Tiger Knee)[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Yun (avoids EX Dragon Kicks)[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Yang (beats H/EX Roll Kick & all versions of Command Dash)[/INDENT]

(corner Forward Throw)
[INDENT=1]-Fuhajin Store x2, cr.lp[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]E.Honda (avoids all versions of Headbutts, loses to Butt Slam)[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Fei Long (beats L/M/H Flame Kicks, avoids EX Flame Kick, beats H/EX Chicken Wing)[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]M.Bison (Avoids EX Psycho Crusher, loses to normal versions)[/INDENT]

[INDENT=1]-Backdash, far st.mp, st.lp[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Cammy (beats all versions of Canon Spike, Spiral Arrow & Hooligan)[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]E.Honda (beats all versions of Headbutts, loses to Butt Slam)[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Fei Long (beats EX Chicken Wing, avoids Flame Kicks, loses to H Chicken Wing)[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]M.Bison (beats all versions of Psycho Crusher & Scissor Kicks, avoids Headstomps)[/INDENT]

(H Pinwheel)
[INDENT=1]-L Pinwheel[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Adon (beats L/M/EX Rising Jaguar, avoids H Rising Jaguar)[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Cammy (beats all versions of Canon Spike, avoids Spiral Arrows)[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]E.Honda (avoids all versions of Headbutt, avoids EX Butt Slam, loses to H Butt Slam)[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Fei Long (beats EX Chicken Wing, loses to H version, avoids Flame Kicks)[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]M.Bison (beats all versions of Psycho Crusher & Scissor Kicks, avoids Headstomps)[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Sagat (beats M/H/EX Tiger Uppercut & H/EX Tiger Knee)[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Seth (avoids all versions of Dragon Punch, beats H/EX Spin Kicks)[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Yun (avoids H/EX Dragon Kicks)[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Yang (beats H/EX Roll Kick & Command Dash)[/INDENT]

(2 hit dive kick)
[INDENT=1]-far st.mp[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]E.Honda (avoids EX Headbutt, beats H Headbutt, loses to Butt Slam)[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]M.Bison (beats all versions of Psycho Crusher)[/INDENT]

(cl.st.mk (one hit) xx Fuhajin Store)
(cl.st.hp xx L Pinwheel)
(EX Dive Kick, L Pinwheel)
(jf.mp xx L Dive Kick (one hit))
(AA H Fuhajin, Dash xx L Pinwheel)
[INDENT=1]-far st.hp[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Cammy ()[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]E.Honda (beats all versions of Headbutt & Butt Slam)[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Fei Long (beats H/EX Chicken Wing, avoids Flame Kicks)[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]M.Bison (beats all versions of Psycho Crusher & Scissor Kicks, avoids Headstomps)[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Sagat ()[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Yun (beats H/EX Dragon Kicks & Lunge Punch)[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Yang (beats EX Roll Kick, loses to H version, beats Command Dash)[/INDENT]

[INDENT=1]-far st.mp, st.lp[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]E.Honda ()[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]M.Bison ()[/INDENT]

(point blank M Super)
[INDENT=1]-H Pinwheel, cr.hp[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Cammy ()[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]E.Honda ()[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]M.Bison ()[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Sagat ()[/INDENT]

(cl.st.hp xx M Super)
[INDENT=1]-jf H Dive Kick, backdash, dash[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]E.Honda ()[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]M.Bison ()[/INDENT]

(corner H Super)
[INDENT=1]-far st.mp, Fuhajin Store x2 [/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Cammy (beats all versions of Canon Spike, avoids Spiral Arrows)[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]M.Bison (beats all versions of Psycho Crusher & Scissor Kicks, avoids Headstomps)[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Yun (beasts EX Dragon Kick, trades with Lunge Punch)[/INDENT]

[INDENT=1]-nj.hk, Fuhajin Store x2 [/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]E.Honda (beats all versions of Headbutt, loses to EX Butt Slam)[/INDENT]

[INDENT=1]-Fuhajin Store x2 (for quicker recovery)[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Sagat (beats M/H/EX Dragon Punch & H/EX Tiger Knee)[/INDENT]

(Ultra 2)
[INDENT=1]-far st.hp, cr.mp[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]M.Bison (beats all versions of Psycho Crusher & Scissor Kicks, avoids Headstomps)[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Cammy ()[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Sagat ()[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Yun ()[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Yang ()[/INDENT]

[INDENT=1]-far st.hpx2[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Adon ()[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]E.Honda (beats all versions of Headbutt & Butt Slam)[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Fei Long ()[/INDENT]

Still testing… this post will eventually be updated with more results.


#5

Thanks man.

I’m still pretty much experimenting but I’d like to start incorporating some of these findings into my gameplan. I’m also curious to see how well a playstyle revolving around counter setups would work. Of course I wouldn’t just do counter setups, that would be dumb. But I kinda like the idea of using these to also condition the opponent and maybe create some type of interesting mind game.


#6

At first I thought this was gonna be a counter hit setup guide and just wanted to wait and see how it spanned out. Now I’m liking how this looks. It’s kinda like the fuzzy guard thread where they had specific setups to get fuzzy guard on different characters that it couldn’t be done on the normal way. I like this so keep it up.


#7

Funny thing is, I was thinking about making a thread about frame trapping. But I’m still working on some vids for it…

Yeah… Except I don’t like setups that are too character specific. Like, a setup that only works on Seth but on no one else is kinda useless or hard to remember. That’s why I’m trying to find ways to make some character specific setups more universal, flexible or useful.

So for example I have a setup for vulnerable reversals, one for stationary reversals, some for traveling reversals, and safe jump/cross-over jump setups after techable knockdowns, Super and U2. Mix that with OSing and that’s pretty much all I need to cover the whole cast.

btw, the pre-ender inputs are just to help get the spacing and timing down. You don’t really HAVE TO know all that by heart. When you think about it, all you need to know is where to be when the opponent starts getting up and be aware of the main character groups (faster reversals, slower recovery etc.). Once you get used to the different characters wake up and reversal speeds it becomes easier to get the timing down.


#8

Great stuff! Very practical too.


#9

This is some amazing stuff, thanks!


#10

OK I’m having problems with this timing of some of these…

the dash x3 j.mp for Chun’s reversal, i’m messing it up like no ones business…I can get it, but I’m not consistent enough…

same thing for the NJ Dive kick dash > back dash j.mp for the Bison PC bait…how am i to time the j. mp so i know it’ll hit BisonI keep getting hit.


#11

It’s because a lot of these are not automatic, rather manual.