Couple of questions about her EX-Hayate followup and more

makoto

#1

I watch theese tournament movies of makoto vs chunli, ken, ryu and some more cant recall who at the moment. How ever makoto is slapping them silly as usual nothing out of the ordinary UNTILL she does her trademark karakusa-hp-ex hayate and then follows up with like a walking short. this she does to ryu and ken, and on chunli she does some sort of hayate, i cant tell if its a short, strong or fierce one. but it all combos! i tried it on the training and i cant seem to get it working for the life of me. and on some characters she even follows up the ex-hayate with a s.forward.

Is it different follow ups depending on what character she is up against, or does theese work on everyone just that the timing is realy realy tricky?=/

And also! on the shirube where makoto “rapes” dudley, she does karakusa-hp-cancel sa2-dash-mp fukiage-straight up jumping hp

How on earth does one do that final jumpin hp? is it also just a timid timing on it or is it NOT mp fukiage? or can you cancel the fukiage somehow?


#2

The Ex Hayate followups are VERY character specific sometimes. For example, jab Hayate followup works on Akuma, but NONE of the other shotos will get hit by it for some reason. Sometimes it’s ambigious whether standing forward will hit shotos or not, which is why you often see the much more guaranteed towards+lk for the reset. One of these days I’m gonna type up a character specific matchup thread, against some characters(like Ken), I believe the resets become that much more important.

All you have to do to followup the mp(or fp, or lp) fukiage in that situation is simply super jump cancel. If you SJC right after the fist hits, you will follow up your opponent in the air.


#3

corner ex-hayate followups as far as i know!

f.lk: works on everybody, if you dash after, you’ll end up crossing under dudley,akuma,alex(?), maybe some other people

s.mk: (consistently) dudley, probably other people on this one too

lp hayate: chun-li, makoto, elena, urien, alex, Q, akuma, hugo(?)

c.mp: urien, hugo, alex

s.hp: alex

I’m not sure about some of these, and some people may be missing; good luck!


#4

I mostly play against 3 of my friends, one uses Ryu a lot, one uses Dudley a lot, and the other uses Ken a lot. One thing I know for sure is that I use c.mp after ex-hayate in the corner and it works on all 3 of them every time. So I say pretty confidently that the c.mp will work on Ken, Ryu, and Dudley at least.

I have found no reason to use f.lk as a follow up on any opponent that c.mp will work on but I see good Makotos do it a lot. Is there a particular reason that they use f.lk instead of c.mp? I’ve wondered this for a long time, cause I just can’t find a reason that f.lk would be any better (even though I haven’t tried very hard to find one).


#5

It seems like f.lk leaves you closer to the opponent and gives you a little more time to do whatever mix-up. I should test (and/or really know what im talking about) before i post. :party:


#6

I tend not to use f+lk unless it is the only reset option. It actually has worse recovery than s.mk and c.mp. With f+lk, you get put into an awkward spot where you’re too far to karakusa, yet you’re too close to properly karakarakusa. With f.lk, if you dash in, you’re opponent gets a free throw on you. I really like s.mk, it recovers a frame later than c.mp, but I prefer it. On c.mp reset>>>dash in, you get there a little earlier than your opponent, they get a chance to feel out what you might do. With s.mk, you’re right in their face the very moment they recover, so it becomes much more of a blind guess for them. Block(people LOVE EX SRKs heheh), tick throw, or EX Fukiage accordingly.


#7

Hm, thanks for that! I’ve never messed with s.mk much. I usually stuck with f.lk->karakara/kara-chop/random anti-jump/block (defensive crouch has been my new favorite mixup lately) if i wasnt able to hayate again. I’ll have to try this s.mk business ouuuuut.


#8

yea I see kara EX chop alot after the f+lk, but again, it really doesn’t put you in an ideal mixup position. The kara itself(or even the ex chop) is liable to get parried. Since it doesn’t combo(and you’re too far away to mixup with c.lk>>ex oroshi), people who get ticked by the kara can just tap forward to negate your EX, no red parry required. Regarding karakara range its pretty much character specific, unfortunately. At f+lk reset range you are too close to karakara shotos.

Edit, look post below. you can karakara, you must kara the very moment you recovery, timing is tighter but it’s possible.


#9

You can karakara after the f+lk. If you’re unable too, you’re doing it too slow. It works on everyone becuase the s.lk wiffs and they land into your karakusa.

Kara EX chop isnt bad either. I -assume- it would stop jump aways, but beyond that if it hits, they have to wake up to your mix up in the corner (no quickrise). Again, if you do it right, the LK will wiff and if they are blocking low, you know what happens.

You can always say something will get parried, but thats the point of a mix up. They could parry you but you need to pay attention to what your opponent likes to do so that dosent happen. I mean, with Makoto’s game over all you really have to think “My opponent keep parrying me, what will negate this?” A grab of course, and that is where her karakusa comes into play.

My opinon on it is that I always use f+lk cause I know it works on basicly everyone. There is awlays a risk involved with resetting, so I dont do it all the time, but with Makoto the payoff is huge if you string everything together in your favor.

What I have seen is people either already know about the Karakara after the reset, or will catch on real quick. I usally use C. RH for when they start to jump away after they catch on to it. Im pretty positive kara ex chop should stop jumps as well.

So does anyone know if you are able to set up a Karakara after a c.mp?


#10

I take that back then, don’t want to spread any wrong info. However, I still don’t think f+lk is ideal unless it’s the only reset option. Of course, if you want a reset, any reset is better than no reset, so it’s always something to keep in mind. I see what you’re saying, but against someone like Ken(IMO, her worst matchup), any kara mixup you can possibly do with f+lk can be negated with srk or super. That is, if he sees you stick out lk, it’s free punishment for him. It’s probably a moot point, because not many characters even have the constant, immediate punishment capability that Ken has. Too bad I run into him so often:bluu:

On a side note, this is the most gameplay discussion we’ve had in this forum in like, months??? Let’s keep it up~


#11

Yeah, Ken’s Jab DP is a problem, but its a problem for a lot of shit in the game. You can always bait it by doing the LK but no karakusa. haha. i do that sometimes, more on wake up than after a reset tho.

I do think it is ideal becuase you can set up so many things with it. The Karakara, the Karachop and then you can dash under them and grip them with a karakusa and set up SAII (I never do this). I dont know what other options you have with the other resets.


#12

Yea, that was kind of my point, you can’t bait with lk in that particular setup, it’s recovery is too long, especially if you don’t cancel it out with kara-anything. Ken will get you on reaction to lk regardless, it’s free punishment for him. For the second part, u mean on like Urien+Dudley+other freaks who you can cross up? I also haven’t used that at all recently, none of the people I play with will fall for that now, heheh. It’s another one of those things that only work on people who’ve never seen it before.


#13

Yes you can, but it’s hard for me personally to do it quickly enough to work well - here’s why (on shotos); When you reset with just c.mp, you’re too far away for the karakara, but if you cancel the low strong into a hayate, and then cancel the hayate, and then karakara, it’s like perfect range. It’s not really too hard, just takes some dexterity.

I think on Urien you wouldn’t need the cancel because of his wide box and how he kinda floats out of resets. On Alex and Hugo I usually always do a standing fierce xx hayate cancel after the EX hayate, and that also puts you in working karakara range. Actually, if Alex is dizzy, if you jump in fierce, st.fierce, EX hayate, st.fierce xx hayate cancel to reset, then karakara, st.fierce xx ex hayate, he’s dizzy again. Not that he would have enough life to be dizzy once and then live to dizzy again, but good to know in case - esp if you land a jumping fierce on him grounded out of dizzy.

If once you reset and dash behind, if its harder to get the kara I would suggest trying something safer like st.strong, cr.short (pushing some characters out of throw range), or cr.short xx jab hayate to set it up. Can be seen too, but less of a risk. Kara-Oroshi does stop jumps as well.

Some of you may have seen this but it you don’t reset Alex after a EX hayate in the corner, and he rolls, if you dash up as soon as you recover from the EX and whiff a st.strong for timing, you can kara-EX fukaige and it will crossup Alex as soon as he gets up.


#14

Ramza,

I’m pretty sure if the LK wiffs he wont be able to DP you out of it. I’d have to try it but I dont see how you wouldnt recover in time.

alex,

thats good stuff. I figured it had to be with a canceled hayate if anything.


#15

Does S.HP not work on Hugo? Just Alex?


#16

It works on Hugo too, I’m just not sure if the reset redizzy thing does (karakara), but I think so. I’ll probably try to test and make sure tonight.


#17

IIRC, Hugo Dudley and Alex all have the highest stun bars in the game, but they all have equal “points” of stun. Unless all the characters have different stun while being dizzied, it should all be good on Hugo too. And Haunts, Ken nails you as your knee retracts. Unless it’s possible that I did the lk whiff two frames too late, any kara mixup(or even fake out) is a no go in that reset situation.

I’ll test out lk whiff–>hayate cancel however, as of now I would assume that would at least give you a chance to recover.


#18

I added this stuff to the main faq. thanks guys.


#19

Yeah I think you’re right on the stun lengths, I just also wasn’t sure if Hugo fell right to get the karakara (if he gets hit by the short) after st.fierce xx hayate cancel. I’m almost positive I’ve done this a bunch in training, I just didn’t want to spread misinformation. Thanks for that though.

NP haunts.