Custom comboes, how could you clean them up?


#1

okay, i guess a lot of people are going to eat me up for this thread because of the hate for cc’s. but please, i mean no harm, so please don’t hit the neg rep button yet, hehe.

seeing that super sf4 is coming some guys i know really wishes for for bison to get to get a custom combo ultra. seeing the track record of custom comboes becoming overpowered after a while, i wonder if there could be a way to clean them up and become something that doesn’t kick the game’s ass and become overpowered in the long run?

reading what the guys over at the marvel forums say about their infinites’ usefullness, i came across one point where one guy said that they’re a lot about spacing yourself and getting the opponent where you want them rather than just killing them off. this i found a little interesting and i kept thinking about if the custom comboes should be designed to have more focus on the spacing and placement of opponents rather than just raw damage. what if custom comboes had a set amount of damage and stun and after you had exceeded that limit the damage scaling would kick in really hard and it the hits afterwards would be useless for damage but really be more about placing your opponent at a disadvantegious position ( i don’t think i spelled that correctly).

although i know the removal of raw damage would really nullify the original intentions of custom comboes in general, i think it would be cool to see it taking a little different direction than what we’re used to. but to be a little honest though, painting the fence is a fun cc though, hehe.

what do you think? could we really clean them up or don’t they have the potential to be anything other than just annoying and stupid?


#2

The whole concept of CC just asks for brokeness: cancel a move with another move. It doesn’t even follow the restrictions of a chain combo (cancel a move with a stronger move), it’s just mashing madness all over, not just normal moves, but special moves as well. I think Capcom wanted to balance it out in SFA 3’s V-ISM by not making it a mash-friendly feature, but instead we got a lethal lockfest where you could actually position the opponent into just blocking forever while you have free reign in what your character wants to do.

SF EX 2’s Excel is also pretty wack. It feels more stiff than regular CC, but I guess it’s more to blame the game itself than the actual feature.

And CvS 2’s A-Groove option of including supers within the CC is just LOLZ.

The simple word “custom” actually represents that you get free reign on whatever the character can do. And by eliminating the regular combo boundaries, rules are thrown out the window, and so does the game’s sanity.


#3

I dont know if it will be as bad as we all think , I mean the normal damage scaling on a natural combo after 10 hits , you gain really nothing from it. So Im guessing the damage scaling on the CC’s will MAYBE be as bad or worse to the point where you will actually have to maximize damage by the first few hits of the combo your trying to do. But in the long run depending on who has them or how they decide to go about doing them could potentially be a problem.


#4

Lantis wins the thread at post #2.

Dr. B doesn’t need custom combos to school fools.


#5

I think any form of CCs are hilarious for games. I get excited watching broken shit going on screen. I mean it’s just the thought of wailing on someone helpless. After a while it makes the games boring, but still. :rofl:

They are pretty bad, and it doesn’t seem like they could ever be implemented in a manner where they don’t become bullshit, though.


#6

I don’t know, I think A3^ was coming very, very close to making them as balanced as possible, while at the same time executing it terribly… I think the best idea is like A3, having different modes, except they all combat and counter eachother. Where one mode has custom combos and custom block strings, another has high defence, counter abilities and good damage opportunities. I think it’s pretty stupid in a game where everyone runs the same system because it’s guarenteed that some characters will have better custom combos than others, but in a game where characters have the choice of different systems, they can use good defensive options to bait, counter and punnish custom combos.

While I can’t see a fighter coming out with CC’s right now, it’s still an interesting concept and something which I believe can be perfected…


#7

It always seemed that the damage potential was too great.

I’m all for a system where a custom combo does 120% of what a comparible super combo would do, but in reality, it usually turned out to be something like 200% of what you’re regular super could do.

All things considered? KOF12 does it right with CCs. They’re moderately difficult, have limited windows of availability and they end…(Joe infinite being the exception).


#8

Dr. B is to Hip hop like Yoko Ono was to the Beetles.


#9

Most custom combos in CVS2 were geared so the first few hits were strong hits anyway… but even with damage scaling, it didn’t help much since some characters could tack on so many quick hitting moves the damage scaling didn’t do anything at all, like Sakura shoshosho or Bison paint the fence.


#10

Removing invincibility during activation would probably be a nice way to tone CCs down.
Being able to cancel anything into anything during CCs isn’t so bad, as long as the damage scaling is done right.
Maybe being able to cancel normal moves into activation would be nice too (a la KOF2002 max mode, probably a nice way to make up for the removal of activation invincibility).


#11

I know what you mean, invincibility is deffinately one of the more BS aspects to CCs. Although I have to admit, I do like counter activation, gets me hyped when someone’s CC gets beat by another…


#12

I’d say that the goal in CCs should be to do about 80% of a comparable super. And then make it 70% because people will surely find ways to maximise damage over time.

That way, you could have the invincibility as well as the “forcing a hit” in option without it beoming broken.

I think what games in the past did was make CCs slightly better than Supers because you have to work harder for your damage but in the end introduced something overpowered because they didn’t think some things fully to the end.

That said, I rather have CCs be a Special like Genei Jin for some characters as it feels pretty lame when you see all chars busting out constant moves chaining into itself and dilutes character differences on the super side.


#13

Just look at Yang’s sa3 in 3s. Perfect example of a CC that isn’t broken.


#14

That’s not a CC, that’s just a shadow-clone-thingy. Can’t cancel anything into anything differently, it just hits thrice instead of once. Basically just a buff really.

CCs could work if there was some limit (other than meter/time) was added to it. Maybe something like attacks (can only do each attack once or something), range, or all attacks to x damage and you can only do y number of attacks.


#15

oh ya good point. custom combo-y enough for me tho. the way i see it, you either remove one of typical properties of CC’s (like canceling the moves) or nurf the damage really bad to make them fair.


#16

the problem has less to do with the monster damage cc’s do rather than 2-3 main problems:

  1. requires no joystick motions and 1 P+K to activate
  2. long invincibility combined with #1
  3. can be done on the ground or in the air

#1 is the biggest thing. and if you don’t think so, then ask yourself why supers in ST have the same characteristics as cvs2 cc’s, (invincibility, big damage, safe on block, good chip), but aren’t broken. ever seen a ST player afraid to walk up low short before? no? ever see a cvs2 player afraid to walk up low short? and #3 is stupid; most characters don’t even have an air super, so why give everybody the ability to do cc’s in the air so you can render anti-airs obsolete?


#17

They should take the GoF route.

Massively downpower all moves while in the CC state, and keep the CC state to a limited time only, also give hitstun penalties for cancelling a stronger move with a weaker move.

In GoF, an infight combo always does less damage than a normal combo of weak-strong-strong links. even if it had 2x the hits. And the more hits you did, the more the opponent’s hitstun would scale (especially if they resisted properly) so the chances of them slipping into guard or parrying your attacks would be higher.

To get an Infight in GoF you also had to either sacrifice meter to rail cancel into the CC state, or dash into the opponent while they’re in a defensive stance to initiate it, which is risky if the opponent knows what you’re trying to do and intercepts you with a jab.


#18

If you remove the invincibility during startup, the ability to combo into cc, and followup options after CC it wouldn’t be that bad
…Then again it probably wouldn’t be that good either


#19

KOFXII’s CC system is the best one I’ve seen yet. Now if they just revise different parts about them like change the total damage done, then we be all set.


#20

i like this post a lot.

cc’s can add a good bit of technicality to the game if they’re not over dominating. They shouldn’t do HUGE amounts of life but enough life to make the technical aspect count. I would prefer it if a player got hit confirm, CC for max life of 25-30% rather than someone doing, hit confirm, super for the same amount. The super does the majority of the damage instead of having the player work for it with a technical combo.

As of yet, I don’t personally like any CC game. I used to get down on A2 but that game probably has the worst example of CC’s than any other game. Invincible hit box, unblockable low, HUGE amounts of life off a level 1, goes through AA’s.