CvS2: K-Groove Discussion

Hey guys, I am just wondering what exactly happens when you just defend?

  For example do you get frame advantage to then go and attack your opponent?  Basically Im looking for some really good info about k grove, and the just defending mechanism.  

reading the video-opera data on frames made me think about how does Just defending effect all that.

Basically, I see it as absorbing an attack. You get a little tick of life for JD’ing. You get little or most time no frame advantage for JD’ing, however. But if you land one against a laggy move like the shoto’s C.HK, it’s easier to punish. Oh, and be careful about being a JD whore. Too much and you’ll get thrown easily. And if you JD an air or anti-air attack, your character bounces back a little. I’m not too sure if you have to JD more than one hit of Sagat’s fierce DP though. I’m pretty sure you do, but can anyone confirm this?

The thing I absoulutely hate about play K-Groove isn’t the groove itself, but the people you play against. One minute they’re rushing that shit down and the next they run away and start turtling because you’re raged. You’ll have to basically bait them so you can super them. But you can always low jump attack into a super which is pretty easy to do. Charge characters have a harder time with this though. If anything I’d have to say go for a guard crush since K-Groove raises guard crush damage.

No frame advantage for k grove eh?
Well let me ask, whats the best use of the time I get from the flash that comes from just defending?

Im really trying to figure out what k grove is all about.....

Any k-grove experts?

lol i’m one of those people that run from the k groovers lol.

i use K groove also. I’m ok with JD i just can’t JD dragon punches all the time. but my friend invincible storm is a fucking JD beast. the dominican Ino i swear. he JD all my pokes strings it’s so funny. cause i rush the shit outta him he just JD then he’s raged then i start running away. it’s very fun tho.

i don’t think JD gives frame advatage. it’s best to JD air to air attack so u can retaliate. also if u JD a dragon punch u can retaliate. but JD on the ground isn’t that hot tho. it’s better then getting your gaurd broken and it looks fancy but don’t beast with it. slowly learn it and don’t try to much. that’s how i was in 3S trying to parry all day. now i don’t even parry unless it’s a projectile. and i’m MUCH better in that game now. same for CvS2.

JD just takes away ur blockstun, no advantage whatsoever in frames :stuck_out_tongue: and ye i play k groove, running is gay, but look at it like this: when ur raged, 3 throws is like the same dmage as a lvl3 almost =/ goddamn… and ye go for guardbreak thats why i use haohmaru(sp?) his fierce is wicked

JD gives shorter blockstun, so that = frame advantage.

I dunno it it’s different for different moves. i’m thinking it’s the same blockstun for each JD. But I could be wrong. I think I remember it being the same as blocking a jab? So you don’t get advantage after a jab, but stronger moves you do.

Someone please corect me if I’m wrong.

Also, something important to note about K-Groove. You might find yourself getting Guard Crushed a little more since the bar is a bit smaller compared to the other grooves. With the exception of P-Groove which has the slowest charge rate. Check out Buktooth’s CvS2 system guide for more info.

Reduced block stun and frame advantage are two different things. When you JD a multi-hit move, do you notice that you JD the hits in almlost real time? And when you parry a multi-hit move that there is a pause? That’s because Parry “freezes” time thus giving you a fame advantage. All JD does is reduce block stun allowing you to RETALIATE faster.

Does any one know how meny frames you have before you can JD an attack box? Or parrying?

JD =
Less Block Stun
No Chip Damage Taken
No Guard Damage Taken
Gain Very Little Vitality Back
Gain 14 Points of Gauge :eek:

I think THAT is what makes K-Groove so dangerous[sp]. The fact that K-Gauge is only supposs to get points after being damaged (or taunted). But JDing gives it ALOT of gauge.

I’m sure how the K-Gauge gaining system works. If I hit you with 15 hits for 3500 Damage you go raging. Also if I hit you with 4 hits for 6300 damage you go raging. If anyone knows the K-Gauge formula, do post it as well.

Frame advantage is when you recover before your opponent.

If I block Bison’s slide at the beginning, I have frame advantage. I will recover before he will.

Like you said, if I parry a d.MK, I have frame advantage.
I recover before he will.

If my reduced blockstun from a JD let’s me recover before my opponent does, when I otherwise couldn’t, the JD gives me frame advantage.

I don’t think the game “pausing” has anything to do with frame advantage really. It pauses like that when I JD a projectile super, so that’s the only time JD gives me frame advantage? :slight_smile: that doesn’t really make sense.

Right? It’s not near as good as parry in terms of recovery, but I’m just trying to nitpick here. :slight_smile: I think the “no-pushback” thing COMBINED with the short blockstun is what makes it good for hitting opponents after a JD.

Im pretty sure JD does not give advantage.

I give the following examples:

Sakura roundhouse hurricaine.

  • if you block this move you are at a small disadvantage (just enough for sakura to tag in a s.wp)

  • if you JD all of this move (not including the extra kick) you are still at a disadvantage. JDing this move does not make up for that small disadvantage.

Cammy close s.Fierce

  • Not only does JDing this move not give you an advantage, it actually puts you in a worse situation than before. If you JD a close s.fierce you get to eat/JD another one.

What JD does is eliminate push back, so moves that you would not be able to punish because you are pushed back too far (thus making anything you have not reach, or take too long for the hitbox to extend to the right distance)

It does fuck with the other persons timing though. For example JDing one of rolentos jabs can sometimes lead to them pressing jab at the wrong time, and by the time they realize you can often throw them. (this has happened to my rolento a number of times.)

I know there was a thread like this a while back and it was discussed in more detail. I suggest you look for that thread.

JChen’s guide says JD gives shorter blockstun (which prolly could lead to frame advantage somehow, i mean think about it). I don’t know how long JD stun is though. :confused: But I think I remember it being universal.

Perhaps the 2 moves you mentioned naturally have short enough blockstun that JD stun isn’t short enough to cover?

If someone could confirm how long JDstun is, we could easily figure this mess out.

Since in-game examples are top tier (and I just got my DC back) I will provide some of my own. :slight_smile:

1. point blank Sagat lvl3 tiger raid.
WITHOUT JD, I am stuck in blockstun the entire time until it is finished.
WITH JD, After I JD the 3rd hit I come out of JDstun and can hit Sagat (DP/Super/whatever)

Shorter blockstun allows me to recover before I normally could without JD.

2. point blank Sagat d.MK
WITHOUT JD, I cannot hit him after I block it with reversal SuperFB, or ShinShoryuken
WITH JD, I can easily SuperFB or ShinShoryuken him after the d.MK

You might be thinking “oh, that might be because of the no-pushback thing”. It’s not. I can JD the tip of his d.MK, and still land a SuperFB. Much farther than normaly blocking a point blank d.MK. I can even d.MK into SuperFB after JDing the tip of his d.MK.

If I have any advantage at all after normal blocking his d.MK, it must be horribly small. However, If I JD, I must gain quite a substantial advantage because I can hit him so easily.

So JD gives me frame advantage in these situations, yes?

But my point, especially with cammy, is that she can throw out close s.fierce, you jd, she recovers, and throws it out again before you can begin to retaliate. That’s quite a lot of frames in between…

And speaking purely from experienec and not any technical data… most moves ive seen punished on a JD are moves that would be punished anyways if used at that distance (ie JDing a sweep, and leaving them closer because of the lack of pushback… if someone did a sweep and you blocked and they were left at that distance you could punish just as easily)

[lays head on keyboard] :slight_smile:

I said JD gives shorter blockstun. Which should give you better frame advantage when JDing against certain moves instead or normally blocking them. I never said JD is like Parry, and I never said it lets you recover before your opponent after EVERY move.

You said JD doesn’t give frame advantage, and gave 2 examples where it doesn’t. Yes, you are right with those 2 examples.

I then gave 2 examples where BECAUSE of JD and it’s shorter blockstun, I believe you get frame advantage. Nothing to do with loss of pushback, but ONLY the shorter blockstun.

What is your point? Yes, cammy recovers quickly enough after s.HP to be safe after I JD it. So what? You don’t get frame advantage from JDing Cammy’s s.HP apparently. Unless you can disprove an example where I believe you DO get frame advantage from a JD, or correct me on the meaning of the term “frame advantage”, I am going to continue believing that JD can give you frame advantage (or a better frame advantage) in certain situations.

And I know that loss of pushback is usually why you can punish attacks… I mentioned it 3 posts ago! :slight_smile:

Someone with a CvS2 Bible needs to come in here and set us scrubs straight.

Just going to step in here…

JDing definetly shortens block stun slighty…add that with no pushback and you’ll find you can punish a lot of normals and get out of bad situations.
ex. Terry gets fucked by JD…his sweep becomes easily punishable and much less abusable. His Close double/triple fierce is less useful than detrimental against K. He basically goes from a character with many good normals to just strong and short…

that being said Jding can also make some situations worse.
Mainly moves that still have frame advantage when they are JD’d… Sakura roundhouse hurricane, Cammys close Fierce etc. What happens is; you are more vulnerable to throws and close(mainly faster) attacks. These just become more variables working against you…

The way i JD on the ground is move the stick from Left to DownLeft when they attack. Hope this helps for someone.

LOL this is funny. Ok. When you block a Sagat that move has negative frames. Without the longer blockstun that the move gives, you can react on negative frames. Ex:JD a lv3 chun kick super, notice how you have to JD the hits in practically real time? Thats because the kicks have no negative frames alllowing you to do anything.

What are negative frames? you’re still talking about the screen “pausing” thing? Yes, I have to JD all of her kicks really fast… it has nothing to do with what I’m talking about.

Anybody ever bother reading the James Chen CvS2 Systems Faq?

"Performing a Just Defend has five major benefits:

 1) You earn some Super Meter.
 2) You regain a very small amount of life back.
 3) You will not get pushed back at all as you would normally
    would in Block Stun.
 4) Your Block Stun is shorter than normal.
 5) You will not take Block Damage.

 So performing a Just Defend has many benefits.  Although the

Benefits are not as direct as a Parry (which frees you up for instant retaliation), the various smaller benefits can make it VERY worth while. Although you still do have Block Stun, the Block Stun is still noticeably shorter to allow you to actually Just Defend and retaliate against certain slower attacks."

Seriously folks. Read the faq.

For a definition of frame advantage, check out Buktooth’s frame faq.