What does MM offer that cyke doesn’t, it seems to me that they are very similar, except with cyke having options in every case where mm has zero, he seems to win the same matchups by more, and lose the same ones, except not for free like mm. The only thing he can’t replace is the rockball, which doesn’t seem to be a big deal, i can almost pushblock cancel out of HSF, so anything mm can do can’t be that bad.
Absolutely nothing. Cyclops is a better character and closer to top tier than Megaman is. Its just strategy that has guys like me using Megaman instead of another character on my team. Cyclops is still regarded as best when used as an assist and a backup character. Very few people use him on point.
Megaman on the other hand is almost strictly a point character that builds meter as he, hopefully, damages or kills characters off the other team. Easy damage jump fierce = a whole combo by Cyclops. Because of his height, Megaman is not chipped as much during Strider/Doom, Sprial/Sent traps and such, IMO he has a bigger window to pop out of the traps.
Cyke can fight and beat Cable and Sent most of the time IMO thats a big plus in his favor. Where as I think Megaman has a better chance against Storm and Magneto. Random jump roundhouse by Cyke is almost the same type of thing as rockball when chasing runaway Storm. Cyke has a rushdown game, where as Megaman doesn’t.
All in all, its just character preference. I mean, if we all played the absolute best characters, everybody would play Storm/Sent/Commando, or Sent/Cable/Commando, etc. It’s just a preference some of us have to playing Megaman.
I don’t think megaman has a better chance against storm and mags than cyke. If someone knows that mm fierce can’t actually hurt them, i think it nullifies everything but the rockball game. To that end cyke rh is much more reliable in air-air and air-ground. The rockball is a ground move, which ultimately will be too slow for storm IMO, SJ RH is an anywhere attack. I agree that he does have a bigger window to pop out of traps tho, he just can’t do anything once he’s out.
Re: Re: Cyke instead of MM
Head to head against Mags is a tough fight for everybody, there is no easy fight there at all, you just basically have to get on him in order to kill Mags. Sent, Megaman, and Cable are the few characters with the ability to sit back and counter attack enough to make Mags somewhat cautious. Cyke has to rely on his jump roundhouse to get Mags off of him, once again his damage must come from combos.
You’re misunderstanding my explanation of the rockball strategy. It used to annoy runaway Storm. In the meantime while she running and trying to avoid rockball, you jump and throw fierces. Once she has to block something, she has to fall, then you stay on her. Cyke’s jump roundhouse has to either beat out or trade with Storm’s air fierce which is hard to time, and she might just do Lightning attack XX super. In either case, Cyke is risking getting hit like most characters where as Megaman is just throwing shit at her.
The reason why I think Megaman has a better chance against Mags and Storm is because he can alter the gameplay those characters use. Cyke doesn’t change it at all. If you can nullify the rushdown game of Mags and Storm, that leave them with very few options. The sole strategy of Megaman is well timed air fierces. That is his bread and butter. Air game means nothing, ground game means nothing, its all about how many fierces you can make them eat. I also don’t understand what you meant by “If someone knows that mm fierce can’t actually hurt them” Megaman’s jumping fierce is one of the most damaging normal attacks in the game.
There’s a very important reason Megaman does better than Cyclops in fighting Magneto/rushdown Storm: jump fierce. Cyclops has to stay on the ground to keep his spray of bullets going, which means if someone manages to get the drop on him, he’s going to get fucked up. Megaman usually only eats a little short or maybe a roundhouse, and also often gets trades, which is way in MM’s favor.
Then there is also Megaman’s size. Megaman can stand under Sentinel or Blackheart and be COMPLETELY unable to be crossed up. This means you have a lot less to worry about anytime either of those assists are out and Magneto is near.
Finally, you don’t know how crucial a role the rockball plays in MM’s game. Without the rockball, MM can stall Magneto pretty well. The rockball protects the only zone (superjump level) where Magneto has a chance of getting in on Megaman if he jump fierces, low fierces and assists over and over.
You can block air fierces all day. If the only method available to you to get around them is superjump, MM just wavedashes and repeats. This is more than theory. I do this all the time to Magneto players (and rushy Storms). I know it’s hard to perceive - I had a hard time believing it myself until I kept trying it, it kept working, and I sat down and thought about why.
I have to disagree with you FMJ. Mega Man handles Magneto and Storm without a doubt (as your boys found out. )
Cyclops IMO is a lot of work and while he is great as an assist, he takes a lot of control work to get to play and doesn’t get the bang of the buck like a Magneto/Storm would for the same effort.
Agreeing with Dasrik and Ranma, Mega Man’s Jumping FP is HELL for Magneto and rushdown Storm. They are trying to super-jump over it and get away, plus it gets annoying. Then on top of it, I just love to assist while you’re not paying attention. Also, Mega Man’s size is underrated. You get that split-second more to call your assist, and when you have poor reaction time like me, it’s all the time in the world. Unless you have an infinite with Magneto, I’d strongly recommend you do not play him against me personally, or wait until Cable or my second character comes out to use him.
If I were to use Cyclops, I’d gain Beam --> Super Optic Blast. I’d lose the size to assist advantage and my free meter unless I’m playing Sentinel trap.
I think unless you’re using Cyclops for AAA, MM’s a better choice. Or else go with MSP, Sent/Cable/AAA, or Storm/Sent/AAA.
Shuma/wolvie/about 20 other characters in the */cable/AAA setup could have won that day, since i used half of them the week before… even tho i still don’t even play marvel, because i know the matches, other people don’t. None of those characters ‘handle mag/storm without a doubt’… bwahahaha
It seems no matter why something works, ppl kinda forget the other factors (like me not telling anyone how to counter), then come back and tell me that it means mm counters storm/mag on srk lolololol. If you wanna play it that way, we’ll see what happens when i play for the other team.
Ranma had a good realistic evaluation: "Air game means nothing, ground game means nothing, its all about how many fierces you can make them eat. "
What i meant by “Knowing that mm can’t hurt you”, is that when you play mm as a normal char, you end up running into random fierces, when you say “Oh he just wants me to run into fierces, ok lets not do that then”, you win. Doing that is still 100x easier than avoiding AHVB’s and flying sentinels.
If you are expecting to fight him like a normal character than yes their dumb ass is going to get hit over and over (which NJS saw first hand), but solving that problem is nowhere near like teaching gief to get in on O.sagat.
MM, along with the 10 or so other mid tier, just hope that mag/storm do not know what they are supposed to do. At least that’s what i’ve seen.
I’d be suprised if the whole team gets past magneto (not my magneto tho) by april. I’d “strongly recommend” you get on that backup team while you still can. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, well, i won’t be finding out.
Sorry about that, there were some things brought into the discussion i could not resist addressing :). much love to megaman users everywhere. I’ll post on the vs cyke portion of the discussion tommorow
FMJaguar: As long as I don’t lose the opening melee (which is hard, but still happens from time to time), I don’t lose to MSP anymore. Ever.
MSS is a trickier deal as Megaman has to actually work from time to time.
I like how mm can stop storm’s hail with one jump fierce. So if you stick with the s.fierce, j.fierce pattern, there is no way storm can land hail storm supers on you. And that is one thing cyke doesn’t have.
Dasrik: intresting, but since i’ve never seen anyone else talk about the M/S side of the equation, so I have to take that with a grain of salt. That’s a big factor IMO, usually when we talk matchups, we’re talking about both sides of the equation, with experience on both sides, the only thing i’ve seen here is playing against a M/S that isn’t playing against mm, but someone that read all the M/S general rushdown faqs and are not intrested in learning specific adjustments.
You can’t trade a fierce if theres nothing to trade with, so what when magneto comes in empty, just advancing position? MM can’t push him far enough out, has less manuverability, his size isn’t an asset anymore. Guessing on an AAA is pretty much it. Noone’s really doing damage, but mm is slowly moving backwards, so either mm messes up and gets caught by throw/short, or is then cornered, if he sits there, he gets locked in, if he escapes over the top, most likely gets airthrown or pushed back into the corner, sounds as textbook to me as mm’s side of the equation.
There are some parts i’m not sure about, mainly the case when mm is right in SJ.AD RH range, whether mm can fierce safely, if he can’t, then he also loses two more scenarios: 1) he can’t cover close range AAA’s with fierce, 2) When cornered, mangeto can force the issue with storm-a from mid-range and wait for a response. If not then i believe he can SJ RH dash back and be safe, just adding another way to slowly kill mm’s team, since he must keep the lead to be of any use IMO.
So i’d like to hear the opinions on these additions. As if we were playing the type of mags you describe, both cyke and mm would own them for free IMO.
Just like with the alpha’s storm comment, i’m not expecting storm to try random hailstorm knowing she’s going to eat a fierce, if she doesn’t know basic what works what doesn’t, mm’s already won, and we don’t need this discussion. To that effect cyke and mm grounded both win that exchange, but can’t cyke optic blast or SOB at the same time mm would need to fierce? doesn’t sound like a big deal to me for that case.
In general i do agree that mm has better control of normal jump height, but at SJ height there’s too much room, you can AD df or uf if needed to advance safely. I explained the ground portion of the match earlier, so i think that’s everything
heh heh There’s more to just pressing FP with Mega Man, and that’s what everyone seems to not think about. Everyone thinks he just jumps back FP and annoys the hell out of you. It’s more than that. There is actually a bit of timing when to throw the fierce punch, watching Magneto so he doesn’t float over you, crossup, infinite. I rarely lose to MSP like Dasrik unless I’m playing someone like Ricky or J-Wong (obviously).
You’d be surprised, but I actually welcome the challenge of you guys figuring me out. I didn’t make the tape for no reason, did I? (that is, if gbursine doesn’t need a Howler to get it to you :p)
Mag/storm is more than blind rushdown as well.
Again your talking about the same magnetos, what about the one I presented. In most tournaments it’s probably just easier to counter your team than to adjust and prepare the magneto side of the equation. Maybe thats one reason our matchup knowledge isn’t where it should be, but that’s a topic for another day.
I think gbursine ate the tape or something, he couldn’t have forgotten it that many times.
Well my statement was to offer what mm has that cyke doesn’t. That was just one scenario I presented. It has no bearing on how storm is played. And yes cyke can optic blast or SOB, but it’s not the same. One requires a lvl of super, and the other(optic blast) isn’t as safe as mm’s jumping fierce.
Sorry, i was off on the tangent i didn’t realize you were referring to the original question. I can see what you mean, mm can jump fierce without risk, a missed OB will let storm come in. I still think it’s not as key as cyke being able to sj.rh or fierce, crouching throw, SOB, etc… I can concede the normal jump height game to mm, but ground and SJ seem like cyke’s area, and that’s where most of the game seems to be. So i was wondering what i missed if anything.
FMJaguar: I know what you’re talking about, and I’ve played tricky MSP players that have attempted to find counters to MM/Sent. The thing is, because Sentinel drones and Rockball cover ALL areas of possible approach by Magneto, he does not have to worry about Magneto attacking ever and is free to maneuver around him. Mags could try approaching him slowly and c.rhing at the right time, and indeed, this is a problem when MM first starts the trap. That stops working well into the trap though because Megaman can jump forward instead after kicking the rockball and there’s nothing Magneto can do about it because of the drones coming from behind him. Mags can bait MM into the corner, but it’s really pointless because Megaman has a wall bounce. Calling Storm-A stops Megaman from kicking the Rockball. However, the drones are not stopped at all, and MM can either wavedash or jumpback fierce on Magneto’s superjump, or just block and go back to jump fierce after the typhoons go away (possible, again, because of the drones). To reiterate my point, Mags can’t get in because he can’t attack and MM is free to maneuver around him.
Storm is a different issue. Rockball trap doesn’t work on her at all, because she can typhoon when MM drops the rockball and it stops the trap (MM can counter this sort of by calling drones right after, but then it’s not a trap). Rushing MM down is hard for Storm until she remembers she can float (damn that float!). So no, in Storm’s case, MM only works on rushy Storms desperate to get the lead back. By that point I’ve usually DHCed in Sentinel anyway.
Yeah I think you have to play the matchups alot to see the little differences but you are right, cyke is probably better on point. But if I were to chose a character to replace mm, I think I’d chose spiral. She has a better trap and great for building meter as well. The only big difference I see is her size.
Cyclops is indeed a better character than Megaman, because he has more good matchups. However, Megaman does better on Magneto because of the reasons I’ve said - he is not on the ground as often. Still, MM is fairly even against Cyke vs. Mags until he gets the Rockball, in which case Mags loses the only angle he can get in on Megaman and the match turns to a washout.
Spiral is a good parallel to Megaman. They both have fairly solid traps with Sentinel that nearly self-perpetuate. They both build lots of meter without doing much themselves. However, there are important differences to take into account when you say that Spiral is better.
- Spiral does more damage with her pressure than Megaman. The chip damage from swords and drones adds up more over time than rockball and drones. However, clean hits from trying to escape the pressure leave Megaman with the damage advantage.
- Megaman can self-perpetuate his trap if he has Rockball, and it covers all angles. Spiral has to load knives every rep, and then decide where she will throw the swords to.
- Megaman can do more damage off a clean hit easier than Spiral can.
Still, overall I say Spiral is a better character because her mobility is awesome.
I still don’t agree with part of the assessment because when Cyke does either SJ attack, he’s prone to get out prioreitized by Storm’s air fierce, or eat lightning attack XX lightning storm, where as rockball or jumping fierces leave Megaman safe. Other than that, Cyke has a better rush ground game.