Dealing with jab/short string offense

guile

#1

This is definitely the weakest part of my game, and I can usually theory my way out of everything, but I’m having a LOT of trouble dealing with this.

Basically the opponent does something like:
c.lk c.lp >
[LIST]
[]another c.lp
[
]throw
[]walk forward, another c.lk
[
]delay SRK (FADC)
[/LIST]

It’s really hard to deal with this. If I just block then I can eat jabs forever until he finally throws.

If I use block/tech option select, then I lose to a delayed SRK (and if the opponent has a command throw, this isn’t even an option).

If I backdash, I lose if he continues to jab/short - and I also lose charge.

If I try to jump to beat a command throw, I will get hit (and into a combo) if he continues to jab string. SRK also beats this.

If I try to flash kick, not only does it lose to a delayed SRK, but if he continues the jab string then I lose charge and don’t get the flash kick out.

==

What am I missing? Is it just a matter of guessing correctly with these limited options?

One thing I’ve been messing with is do low block, then high block + throw. This lets you block long enough to block the SRK and further jab strings (even low), but you get the longer throw tech window of standing - and if they delay too long you get to throw them. It’s not amazing, but it’s pretty good.

Sobat also seems like it could be good because if they delay pokes it will beat those, and it will beat throw.

Any other advice? I played many matches vs a good Ken and this was the main thing I was losing to.


#2

Sounds to me like a timing issue. In all of these cases, option select throwing “should” be able to take care of most of these unless you’re fighting a boxer, dudley, rufus and such. Try to time your option select throw just a tad bit after each of your opponents block string hits. In this case, another cp won’t work cause ur still blocking, walk up throw won’t work cause you hit the throw button, walk up cp/lk won’t work cause you waited a split second, and a delayed srk shouldn’t work if you waited a split second as well. Most of the time though your lk should be coming out to beat any walk up attempts anyways. If you’re still having trouble dealing with the timing, you can always backdash after the first block string once you’re out of block stun.


#3

No, the point is he delays the SRK or block string a certain amount. If you do the option select throwtech, then you will do a c.lk if he doesn’t throw. Delayed blockstring interrupts this c.lk, and SRK beats it clean.

I mentioned backdash and why it doesn’t work.


#4

Tried with lk.FK?


#5

I also mentioned flash kick in the OP…


#6

the best way to not get mixed up by this is to completely avoid it. Use Guile’s Superior Spacing Options to keep them out so they aren’t able to do this to him. Everyone has problems when they’re getting mixed up and there is always going to be a guessing game when someone is pressuring you in some way. So, as a general rule, if you’re the one controlling the match, you can avoid any guessing games someone’s offense will put on you. Analyze why they’re getting in. Jump-ins? Work on your AA. Tatsuing through booms for knockdowns? work on your boom predictability. FADC through booms? again, work on your boom spacing and timings.

Off the top of my head, i don’t really know who’d have a command throw and srk…well, t hawk? why’s t hawk in your face mixing you up? Fei long?

In General, keep them out so this isn’t possible. Once they do though, i dunno, i like to crumble under pressure, personally :D.

TLDR: Guile’s so amazing because he can avoid this situation. I’d say, instead of actually looking at the specific situation you are in getting beat on, look at how it came to be.


#7

Seth was one who was also doing this to me a lot.

I know you’re right, that Guile just has a poor game inside like this, and keeping them out is the goal - but people do get in every now and then. I want to make sure my array of tools is complete once they are inside. I am very good at keeping them out, but it is not possible to never get in this situation.


#8

yeah, i was just speaking in generalities and i know it can happen. you mentioned FK FADC as not being viable because they can delayed srk. that doesn’t mean it isn’t a possible option. If a seth grabs, command grabs, walk up c.lk, srks, continues block string equally, FK FADC will take care of most of those. It’s more about reading their pattern than looking for a 1 move beats all situations. If they command grab a lot, neutral jump more during the mixups. Regular grab? tech more.

The mixups exists because it makes you guess. So, keep a clear head and see if you notice any patterns.

Once again, i’m just speaking in general to avoid any vortex-y situation and i apologize because you wanted specific tactics. Obviously, people will be so good that you can never get out of a vortex situation, but that’s why it’s called a vortex. I’m not going to sit here in front of my computer away from ssf4 and pretend i don’t get caught by vortexes and completely shut down because i do. You know what to do for any choice, you just have to apply it at the right time. That’s the rub. ssf4 rewards offensive pressuring.

damn i got off topic there. At least if you guess right seth eats 50% of his life and you eat only 20% each time. If there is an “end all be all” way to avoid it though, i don’t know it and i don’t believe there is one. It would make ssf4 much more stale if people could get out of any mixup situation with one move.


#9

I know, and I’m not looking for one move solution, i’m just looking for more options. The ones I listed are the only ones I use - if anything else works, then it’d be great.

Well, the issue is that they continue the block string more often than anything - and since it keeps you in blockstun the whole time, there’s really no cost for them to do it 3-4 times rather than 1. If you guess wrong how many times they will do a c.lp and you input a flash kick, you press flash kick but never leave blockstun - so you throw away your downcharge and now lose the flashkick option throughout the rest of the mixup. It’s really annoying compared to playing Shotos where you can just keep inputting SRK after every jab.

Again, I’m not looking for a solution or easy way out of the situation, just any other options I didn’t list that might work.


#10

Not sure if this was mentioned but have you tried OS late crouch tech? It saves you from all those options that you mentioned. It’s basically teching a few frames later than you’d normally hit. For example, if Ryu tries to tick throw, you’ll see his arms go all the way out for grab and it’ll tech out late.


#11

Ya light flash kick is one option. Another thing is cr.mp i would say. Its meaty and it can interupt those block strings and you can follow it up with a SB to be safe in the circumstance they block but at least you can reset. In the circumstance where they hit you with the SRK know that they will MOST LIKELY do that again in the same circumstance and you can punish for large damage next time. Hope that helps =)

Edit: One aspect as well you can think about too is if you’re going to anticipate the string you can throw a f.FK with two bar and ex after as well to be safe and continue to zone.

=)


#12

c.mp loses to pretty much everything they can do… and I already mentioned twice why flash kick has problems. Also, of course you can FADC it, that’s a given


#13

Don’t forget to constantly put yourself in your opponent’s shoes. Playing against Zangief? Got a big lead? He just got a knockdown while he has Ultra? It should be pretty obvious that he’s going to be trying to raw or tick into ultra. Same goes for Ryu. If he’s got the meter and needs a comeback, he’s more likely to try a random shoryu if he has the meter to FADC it.

Now, this is where high end play becomes real fun and tricky. Because honestly, they know that your afraid of their dumb shit, which opens you up for other stuff. Really, super late crouch tech is one of your best options, right along side flashkick FADC.

You said your not looking for a one-size-fits-all answer to this, which is good, since there isn’t one. EX greenhand recovers before flashkick does, and shoryu will often beat it, making flashkick FADC not the most reliable backup tool. So, I feel like re-mentioning the importance of mixing up the tools that you already know. The moment that you escape pressure, you’ve not only been granted another chance at zoning, but you also got into your opponents head. If you escaped a situation with a tech throw once, the next time your opponent will want to punish that with either a shoryu attempt or staggered normals. If you mix up what you already know: backdash, late crouch tech, blocking it out, neutral jump, back jump, and flashkick FADC… suddenly you become in command of your defensive game and, in a sense, command of your aggressor.

In theory anyways.


#14

Very well said. I think this topic has been heavily explored at this point after that response lol


#15

A few things i like to do, is to make sure that the opponent is blocking in order to push them out of range for either shoryuken, cr.rh, or grab. Easiest way to do this is to use Cr.MK. This also puts them in perfect range to get AA by crouching Fierce if they ever jump in. Then u can can apply pressure with Standing Fierce, lp sonic booms and target combos. A Big thing to avoid doing however is Cr.RH unless u plan on FADCing out of it.


#16

Random Ultra FTW!

Jokes aside, I tend to have trouble with this as well, esp. against Guy and Fei.
Used to be very bad against Ryu and Boxer but I’ve gotten better.
What I do is concentrate of watching on the throw and blocking everything else. Just be as patient as possible. I know being block-poked with jabs is annoying but it doesn’t cost you anything…normals don’t chip.
The throw is what resets the game in their favor. If they become impatient and do a special (SRK for example) unleash hell as you’ve just blocked it with a DB charge. If it’s a shoto with meter and Ultra, don’t leave the ground. As slinkun said, put yourself in their shoes and realize what they are fishing for.

In the end, there is no fixed solution to this. It helps if you know the player and their tendencies and it always helps to OS late offline. Guile has no free-out-of-jail card so patience is truly virtue.

Online, may god help you with techs

PS, I know you have addressed this but lk.FK has a few frames in invincibility. Don’t rely on it but if you have meter to FADC it, try to throw it in occasionally.


#17

i think the best way to beat this is to NOT use option select tech against throws. against a great opponent this could still fail, but i think it gives you the best chance.

if you stand, press back and throw at a split second after you think the throw will come, the only thing you will have to worry about is a cr.LK. so basically you have narrowed down a ton of options.

if the opponent goes for any frame trap dp, flame kick, etc… you should block it. if you were using option select tech you are eating this combo.

if they are going for throw you still get the tech. this type of teching is more consistent.

if they are going for a frame trap with a fast attack you should also get a block.

now, if they go for a LK you will eat the combo.

this is why i think it’s best to not option select tech in many situations.


#18

I pray every time ryu jumps in and starts jabbing.


#19

I think this is pretty insightful for me. I’m very used to just habitually mashing throw tech option select, and playing more defensively is just what I need. Make the other player take the risks and be ready to punish him. That’s useful.


#20

couldn’t agree more. Like the African proverb says “dont look at where you fell, but where you slipped”. in other words, what made you fall.

nevertheless, no matter how good your defense is, people will still get in, you just got to be careful and good at reading your opponents moves.