I tweeted at Combofiend and he said that it was 100% accurate. That’s a 4 frame low crush. That means it will beat and lose to the same things lk sobat did, but it’s twice as fast, fadc’able to make it safe, throw invincible and, if successful, is a free ultra. What’s also worth noting is that only the mashed version is -12. The regular version is -8.
Not quite the same (the old lk sobat had 13 frames of low inv, no gaps)
Not to mention the old ex mgu had 4f of low inv too (but with longer startup)
And thats an ex bar…and highly unsafe (ex mgu has drastically less pushback now)
And a down/up charge move limits you severely in footsie situations (you have to sit crouching, and good players get wary of charge chars on downback) It also takes longer to downcharge than sidecharge
And you pretty much would have to be right beside the opponent for it to be effective (trying to ex mgu a shoto low fwd from max range WON’T work for example), which in itself introduces other problems. It could maybe blow up crouch techs but considering you can already do that with staggered jabs cancelled into ex mgu, its not really anything new.
I didn’t mean to make it sound like a LK sobat replacement. I was meaning for beating low meaties on wake up. Something that’s been posted as Dee Jay’s greatest Achilles heel on here.
It’s probably also worth noting that speed increase from 12f start up to 6f as now it should punish those meaty lows before they have a chance to recover where before DeeJay was still in start up when say, Ryu’s cr.MK had recovered.
Man…I gotta say…I totally appreciate you coming on here trying to encourage everyone with your findings.
Your enthusiasm is cool and I know it may seem like we are an ungrateful bunch of disgruntled fools…but some
of us have been playing this SF4 character since Super(me…late Super/start of AE). And since then, it’s been this or that reason why they either nerf or simply ignore what this character needs to be effective and competitive. He is a shell of his old former New challengers/ST self and even if they kept lk sobat with the same Low invincibility and the -3 buff…he still would have problems because of EX machine gun. EX machine gun never lost to Ryu’s cr mk…in the older versions of this game. Or lk sobat for that matter.
Now…they BOTH do. That was the absolute first thing I tried when I got Ultra yesterday.
I couldn’t beat Ryu’s cr mk with ANYTHING save a super late EX sobat that traded half the time or got beat… or super and Ultra. That’s just too much to ask of a player… that he has to wait for 4 bars of meter or an Ultra and pray he guesses right when someone throws it out there. Otherwise
Deejay has to block like almost everything grounded on wake up and he simply shouldn’t have to.
Threi’s post is absolutely spot on. Couldn’t have said it better myself. The new EX machine gun …It’s not the same thing as old lk sobat and it will simply lose to even MORE grounded moves/normals.
It’s just crazy on what they did to this character. Gamerbee and Dieminion did this to Deejay inadvertently imo.
coupled with (Dunhill?) wrecking people with him in Japan in the arcades.
Capcom Japan believed the hype then said…uh…hell nah. Let’s nerf this dude.
A was doing the mandatory day game release gathering and a friend of mine raised an interesting point. Deejay, though strong in ST, was made by Capcom america. He thought maybe capcom just didn’t want an american made character to be viable… japan game dev xenophobia? lol
I kind of like the idea of having charge up for it in a footsies situation with someone using lows, I wonder if it can catch long “low” pokes or limbs, like a dhalsim low jab/slide, rose slide, hell even a hugo cr.lk.
I mentioned this same thing in another thread…and at this point…call me crazy but I’m wondering if that’s the case. But then why make him good in ST?
It’s like the current developers mindset of him being a joke…so they give him tools to make him appear better than he is…but they take certain things away or don’t fill the hole in his specials and normals from version to version…on purpose.
They can’t give him a decent recovering slide in Super, so they give him a decent slide in AE instead…but then they take out the throw invincibilty on lk sobat and give him counter hit if he gets hit out of EX air slasher. So then they finally remove the counter hit on Ex air slasher in 2012…but still don’t fix his Ultra 2 animation when he lands it and is forced to be next to his opponent. Then they say they fixed this in Ultra, along with giving him better hitboxes for his normals and better recovery on lk sobat, but then they nerf the damage on one of his most used jump ins(knee shot) to land a quick combo…and remove complete his low invincibility on lk sobat
so now every good ryu player can spam cr mk and beat him free. And don’t let me get started on his new EX machine gun that now beats certain cr punches but loses to low kicks…when this was the reverse in 2012.
Seriously…they are doing this on purpose. It’s like trying to repair a broken home but only repairing certain things instead of everything that breaks…and the stuff that is repaired is repaired with duck tape instead of something substantial.
Why rely on a tool/change thats basically buffed for wakeup purposes? Now ex mgu is faster on startup, fadcable etc, doesn’t mean we should use ex mgu on wake up now. Doing anything on wakeup is a bad idea overall. It’s like doing ex shoryuken on wakeup with ryu. 3 frames startup, fadcable, invincible etc. U see solid Ryu’s doing ex shoryuken on wakeup?
In Holland we have a proverb:
Iemand blij maken met een dode mus.
Literal Translation: "Make somebody happy with a dead sparrow."
Meaning: “Promissing someone something great, that finally seems worthless”
Well that’s the thing…they don’t have to do EX anything…why would they?
They have a reliable proper reversal that can hit lows and mids without meter…and is FADC-able.
We don’t have an EX move that’s even reliable. And yes…using reversals is a bad idea on wake up because you can get baited…BUT it’s still nice to know you have one that’s reliable… one that can hit lows/mids clean more than it trades or get stuffed. Not to mention the fact that if you absolutely know someone is going to attack you from the ground every single time on wake up you have something to say…Get off me…stop doing that crap or you will pay.
And the whole Blanka ball electricity tactic of wiffing the ball while Deejay gets up from a knockdown or throw…then landing on the other side to go straight to electricity…I think Ryu’s normal reversal would beat that where is Deejay didn’t have an answer for it with upkicks or EX machine gun in 2012…He had to block the shenanigans…I don’t know if this is changed in Ultra.
Why should he be forced to block everything when an opponent is being too obvious with tactics you know in your heart you could stop had you a good reversal? That’s why your opponent does the Blanka Ball tactics…that’s why Ryu spams cr mk and roundouse because they know you can’t do anything about it now save Super or lucky Ultra.
Isn’t a character that has the ability to zone so well kinda obligated to have questionable ability to relieve pressure? I mean, if you play Deejay conservatively, he has the tools to zone really well, and apply pressure well when he correctly capitalizes on knockdows, anti-air cr. roundhouse, Etc. If an opponent is able to navigate the wall of air slashers and ranged slides/st. roundhouses, cr. strong/fierce anti-poking measures, shouldn’t they have the initiative/advantage on wake up? This just makes sense to me. Deejay’s ability to control space in an effort to set up mid-high damage mix-ups is his strength, getting past that offense should yield advantageous situations for the opponent. Perhaps having straight up guaranteed wake-up options is way too good for Deejay and we aren’t thinking about it realistically. I mean, if EX-MGU was just guaranteed, it would really make approaching Deejay on wake up dangerous as hell, as he could just bust it out and go right into Climax beat, which is just freaking good. The other problem is that it would slow the pace down on the inside during wake up for Deejay, which only benefits him. Their has to be some give and take is all I’m saying…
DJ doesn’t have good zoning tools, so everything after your first question is irrelevant. His normals are ass. Out of all zoning characters, he has the worse normals. Out of all charge characters, DJ has the worse normals. Charge characters suppose to have good normals. Unfortunately DJ doesn’t.
Yup. Normals are nowhere near the other charge characters. And if you think he has a “wall of air-slashers”…c’mon…he’s not guile and doesn’t have that type of recovery or his powerful normals. He has to be smart about throwing them… unlike Guile to a degree…can throw them at will without too much retaliation unless his throwing pattern becomes obvious and you predict it to jump at the same time.
And slide gets focus crumpled if you’re obvious or someone get’s a lucky guess…which happens like once a match at least against Fei or someone with a good focus.
Really? I don’t play a ton of Deejay, but his slide seems to be a great anti-air, and his cr. forward is a good sweep that can be combo’d into. Standing forward seems to be a rather solid poke, as can be well spaced sobats (especially short sobat in AE). I was under the impression that these things, coupled with relatively solid air slasher speeds, he could hold his own as a zoning character. But I believe, as I stated above, he’s a zoning and pressure character, and doesn’t particularly excel at either one, but needs both to make him a complete character. But, like a zoning character, lacks a definitive “get the f*ck off me” move.
I don’t think he is a “wall of air-slashers”, but he certainly can apply projectile pressure, and trip you up with decent footsie tools, then apply a mean wake-up pressure game, which is sort of his thing, or at least was in ST…
I was just under the impression this was his character archetype, which, at its core, is a hybrid of zoning charge character, and mid-close range pressure with some wake shinanigan potential. I just wouldn’t expect that character to have a cure all wake up attack, regardless if it was spending meter for ex.