Deep Look At Hard Trial 4 Combo---Jab jab jab, EX Hand

zangief

#1

**EDIT: I made this thread in hopes that people having issues with THIS PARTICULAR COMBO can see this thread and see the input, and the very detailed information on why you might not be consistent with it, how you can get consistent with it, and some facts on why it requires particular timing.

Please visit Ultradavid’s combo thread for all your Zangief combo questions, concerns, and information. Again, this thread was made in the hopes that it can give ALL the information that Zangief beginners need on his most difficult combo.

Thank you in advance for reading!**

Recently I’ve fought a lot more newer SRK faces with my Zangief, and well, a lot of times I get asked how I pull off the combo cr.jab x3, short xx EX Green Hand consistently.

While we all COULD write a very short, sweet, to the point way of pulling it off, I am a firm believer of knowing the HARD DATA, and FACTS behind fighting game mechanics. At the very least, taking the time to understand the mechanics behind the techniques is how I myself learned, became confident, and am able to consistently do things such as renda cancels and kara canceling.

Besides, people have explained it the “easy way” and it still isn’t sticking, so let’s get started!

- Legend -

Light punch, medium punch, heavy punch = Jab, strong, fierce

Light kick, medium kick, heavy kick = Short, forward, roundhouse

Cr. = crouching, St. = standing

~ = Immediately after.

- The Combo -

[media=youtube]2cR7XCMaGT0[/media]

Cr.jab, cr.jab, cr.jab, st.short xx EX Green Hand.

The Actual Input:

:d: + :lp:, :d: + :lp:, :d: + :lp:, :r:, :d:, :df:, :r: + :lk: ~ :mp: :hp:

(And I don’t mean press down each time you press :lp:, just hold down. I know this is obvious but for the sake of being thorough I wanted to point it out.)

**- Zangief’s Green Hand combos, just what are we talking about exactly? - **

One of Zangief’s hard trials (I think Hard Trial 4) wants you to perform 3 crouching jabs, then a standing short, which is then canceled into an EX Green Hand. I believe it is safe to say that most if not all of us Zangief players could not get that short canceled into the EX Green Hand for the life of us the very first time around. In fact, after you finally nailed it, you STILL might not know why it was so difficult, and decided to never try it again!

Fear not, I’m here to help.

- History 101 -

I think it’s helpful to understand similar mechanics of ye olde Street Fighter, just to get an idea of why this is that way, or why X attack has Y properties, etc. If you don’t care though, skip this whole history on CPS2, and how it affects SFIV.

(I condensed it in a spoiler tag so that way if you don’t feel like reading it, it is not taking up space.)

Boring History Lesson

Spoiler

Starting from Super Street Fighter II all the way through to Hyper Street Fighter: Anniversary Edition, Capcom ran Street Fighter on the CPS2 system, which is an arcade system board. The CPS2 system has specific properties in the SF series about canceling from multiple jabs or shorts into special and super moves. The way the system worked, was that if you canceled 2 or more jabs or shorts in one combo, you could no longer cancel into a special for the duration of that combo, UNLESS you change stances (Standing to crouching, or vice versa).

Mental note: If you use only 1 jab/short, you can cancel into a special without standing to crouching or vice versa. It is only when you cancel into another jab/short that you immediately can no longer cancel into a special move without changing stances.

For example, if you are using Balrog in Super Turbo, and did 3 crouching jabs, and then wanted to follow up with a Dash Straight, you could not simply cancel from the 3rd/last jab into the Dash Straight. You had to perform your 3 crouching jabs, THEN stand up, jab, and cancel that jab into his Dash Straight. It’s simply the mechanics of the CPS2 system, don’t ask me why. The second you cancel into another jab/short while standing or crouching, you have to switch to the next stance in order to be able to cancel into a special. So a quick gist of CPS2:

  • You can cancel a single jab or short into a special move.

  • As soon as you cancel 2 or more jabs or shorts in one combo, you immediately lose the ability to cancel your jab or short into a special move.

  • If you change from crouching to standing, or vice versa, the property resets, and you can cancel a SINGLE jab/short into a special (Example: Crouching jab x2, then standing jab, which can be canceled into a special). At any time you perform 2 or more jabs/shorts in a combo, you must switch stances before your next jab/short in order to cancel into a special.

Whew, that was a lot of strange info. But knowledge is power! Don’t ask me why CPS2 is the way it is, it just…is.


- That’s cute, but how does this apply now? -

Fast forward to SFIV. Much like how CPS1 changed to CPS2 in terms of cancel properties, SFIV has it’s own strange mechanics about canceling multiple jabs/shorts into specials.

Remember the mental note?

Mental note: If you use only 1 jab/short, you can cancel into a special without standing to crouching or vice versa. It is only when you cancel into another jab/short that you immediately can no longer cancel into a special move without changing stances.

This was true of the CPS2 system, and the underlined is still true to SFIV (I omitted the standing/crouching lines because as I stated, in SFIV going from standing to crouching does not allow you to cancel into a special without linking still).

In SFIV, the CPS2 system no longer works (Since it’s obviously not running on a CPS2 system). You cannot perform for example, 2 canceled crouching jabs with Balrog, into a canceled standing jab into Dash Straight. It simply doesn’t work anymore. In SFIV, you have to LINK either your last hit before the special, or link the special after your last hit (And imo it’s much easier to link the last hit before the special, rather than linking the special after the last hit).

- Canceling vs Linking -

I’m sure you guys all know the difference between a cancel and a link right? I’m not trying to insult anyone, it’s just an honest question. But in case someone doesn’t, here’s a quick gist:

  • Cancel: Interrupting the frames of one attack, and immediately performing another (Such as pressing jab two or three times in quick succession, or Ken’s medium punch -> heavy punch combo).

  • Link: After a previous attack recovers, perform another attack that is quick enough to hit your opponent BEFORE he is out of hit stun from your previous attack. If he is still in hit stun by the time your attack connects, it will continue to combo, and if your attack does not hit in time, he can block and the combo will not succeed. (So you’re not actually canceling the previous attack, you’re just attacking quickly enough after the previous attack finishes, thus why it’s not a “cancel”).

(Example: Choose Ryu, go into training mode. Do 2 crouching jabs, and you will see they combo very easily with little regard to timing. That’s because jabs/shorts can cancel into each other. Now, try doing a crouching jab, then a crouching strong. If you don’t see “2 hit combo,” it did not link. Since Ryu’s jab doesn’t directly cancel into strong, you have to wait for jab to finish, but hit strong quickly enough so it hits your opponent during hit stun, thus being a combo.)

Now, the reason knowing the difference between the two is important is because linking plays a TREMENDOUS role in SFIV. Since it’s not as easy as in CPS2 (Going from crouching to standing to perform these jab/short combos) it’s worth learning.

So, if you link the LAST attack, you can then cancel that attack into a special move. Since the linked attack was linked, and NOT CANCELED, it is no longer restricted.

- Good, now apply this to Zangief! -

Okay, so you learned the difference between canceling and linking. So let’s go!
So take what we learned, the only way to cancel into that EX Green Hand is to make sure the LAST hit before the special was LINKED and not CANCELED.

So feel free to hit three crouching jabs without worry of timing, and WAIT ABOUT HALF A SECOND AFTER THE THIRD JAB, then press st.short and cancel into the EX Green Hand.

Press the light kick too early, and you will cancel into it rather than link into it, thus not allowing you to cancel it into the EX Green Hand. Press it too late, and your opponent will block the kick and the EX Green Hand. This is why it’s such a difficult combo at first.

So now take a look at the actual combo and input, now that you have knowledge behind it:

The combo:

Cr.jab, cr.jab, cr.jab, st.short xx EX Green Hand.

The Actual Input:

:d: + :lp:, :d: + :lp:, :d: + :lp:, :r:, :d:, :df:, :r: + :lk: ~ :mp: :hp:

EX Green Hand is only a Shoryuken motion, but here we go ALL the way to :r: because the short that cancels into the EX Green Hand is a standing short. The ~ indicates that you press two punches QUICKLY AFTER :lk: connects, but not at the same time.

Now like I said, you need to wait about half a second before the st.short, because if you press it TOO FAST, you will cancel into the st.short, which will not allow you to cancel into the EX Green Hand. This is the way that I myself buffer into the EX Green Hand, and I believe this is a good way to do it because during the EX Green Hand motion, you usually have waited the half second/waited long enough that the st.short is NOT canceled, but LINKED.

**- And finally, the application. WHY should I learn this? - **

Aside from having options, it gives you a huge window to determine whether or not you can squeeze in an EX Green Hand. Say you jump in on your opponent, and you want to EX Green Hand when you land. But, he might block it. Well, after your jump in attack, do a couple crouching jabs, and if he DID NOT block the jabs, continue the combo into the EX Green Hand. If he DID BLOCK, do not use your EX Green Hand, and just mix it up!

(Example: You knock down a Sagat player. You cross him up with a body splash, and then start jabbing when you land. If he blocked the jabs, you can save your meter, if he takes the jabs, you can continue for the EX Green Hand, which sets up more cross up shenanigans!)

I’m sorry that this was a little disorganized, and maybe a little more informative than it needs to be, but I hope I can help out inspiring Zangief players everywhere. A good player learns basics and fundamentals, but a GREAT player learns ALL options available. And trust me, having this option open to your game plan can help you become a better Zangief than you might know.

NOW GET TRAINING!

~ TheGreench


#2

nice idee but the combo

c.jab*;.c.jab*;c.short* XX ExGreenhand is imho much better and a lot easyer to execute you can althou change it into
c.jab;.c.jab;c.short;standing.strong** and you hafe vorget to mention the OPTIONS

*=tickthrow/nothing and block/HK(antijum)/wait make a short pause break the combo and start furth

if your Antiair get a close Highkick and hit it hafe a sweat -1 on hit (best oppertunity to tickthrow!
**=standing HK into spd or as antiair

the combo is shorter force the enemy to block the c.short low wath is actualy the best part of it and less pushback for 288 dmg (with jumpin splash) i assume the combo with one jab more is not better in damage becouse it recuce the ex hand damage 10% more and im sure that after the from me mentioned combo a shortjump WILL NOT crossup on Quickrecovery!! so the wakeup game can be futher tweakend with either crossup or not!

the execution can be done all from crouching and the motion hafe a natural delay inside so you can learn the timing better db (hold) lp;lp; df;d;df+lk; lp+mp; once you learnd the timing you can use any motion you want but i find the df;d;df motion realy good for greenhand especily with a square gate

and t mention how to time it right would althou be wise

in fact

If you got a 3 Hit Combo (4 hit with jumpin) and the Ex-Greenhand wont come out you performed the c.LK to early

If you got a 2 Hit Combo (4 hit with jumpin) and then a 3 Hit Combo you performed the c.LK to late

EDIT:

and here is a howto wich should be almost flawless

  1. learn to df;d;df+lk; lp+mp; (3hitcombo)
  2. make the "df;d;df+lk; lp+mp; " AS FAST AS EVEN POSSIBLE!!
  3. learn it like one motion!! lets name this motion the cLKEXGH
  4. now execute c.jab.jab AND AFTER insert the cLKEXGH g the trick is here to not allow yourself to move the stick BEVORE you entered the 2. c.jab !!!
    5 insert the cLKEXGH as fast as possible it should never be a cance becouse you need to enter the df;d;df BEVORE the LK i never ver managed to cancel the lk even with the fastest speed i could enter the motion this helps a lot !!
  5. finished

you just need now to enter 3 motions as fast as possible without timing issues first 2 .c.jabs than the cLKEXGH :wink: if anybody actualy manage to enter the cLKEXGH AFTER the jab and still get a cancel instead of a link please write it down here(only if you are certan that you didnt start to move the stick bevore the 2. c.Jab) i dont think its possible to be so fast


#3

This thread is pretty helpful

I got the BnB combo down about 60% of the time in training mode i feel like the DS3 is holding me back.

This is the motion i use:

:db::lp::lp::r::df::lk::qcf::3p:


#4

You dont need a fuckin wall of text to pull off this combo. Zangief is easymode character.

HOW TO DO THIS COMBO:

Mash crouching jabs, WAIT A LITTLE BIT, standing LK ex hand. that simple. This post isnt even a joke, thats how i do it, thats how its done.


#5

Try beating a turtle Sagat with easy mode zangief idiot


#6

I don’t like this thread because I agree that the real Zangief bnb combo is

LP 2x, cr. LK, finisher (EXGH/s.MP)

You can follow up the s. MP with s. HK which will whiff and give SPD
Just a good random thing to throw out every once in a while.

LP 3x s.LKxxEXGH does less damage than the above options.

So yea, as is, the thread does not deserve to be stickied. Sorry.
IMHO

In review

LP 2x, cr. LK, finisher = more damage+more options/mind games+easier to execute.


#7

Wow this is a crazy long explanation for this simple thing. But ummm good write?


#8

I still disagree.
So much pointless information too.
That and, it’s all in the Zangief combos thread already.

He really should have just made this topic to be “Zangief bread and butter combo, version 2” and put in the

LP 2x, cr. LK, finisher (EXGH/s.MP) = more damage+more options/mind games+easier to execute

LP 2x, cr. LK, finisher > LP 3x s.LKxxEXGH

and it didn’t take all that much for me to explain either. (unlike Reaper, who went into way too much detail)

More benefits that no one mentioned, cr. LK will hit stand blocking opponents.
Even though it’s rather late in the combo, often I fight people who still haven’t duck blocked by that point, and I get to tag them with the last three hits of the combo for no reason.
You can also start the combo with cr. LK, as well as substitute the LP’s with cr.LK’s, but it’s really hard timing, and not something I’d recommend.

Also…

Splash, close MKxxEX Green hand does the most damage for Zangief simple combos…much more than any of these bnb combos.
The downside is hit confirm is much harder than the bnb combos.

See, the reason we don’t do alternate combos to the bnb combo is because they have draw backs.
Hard timing, no hit confirm, etc.

However…
LP 2x, cr. LK, finisher
has no drawbacks, is easier to do, does more damage, has more options. (except you get a pixel less meter, because you lack one LP)

That’s why it’s the real BNB combo.


#9

:wasted:

:sleep:


#10

Don’t feel bad dude.:tup:

You’re trying to help.:tup:
And that’s important.:tup:

I just wish you would have helped update the people who are still on bread and butter version 1, and get them to bread and butter version 2.

It’s not too late for you to do…and then I do feel it’d be worthy of a sticky, because no where near as many people know of bnbv2.


#11

Lololol, don’t worry man, I won’t lose sleep if this thread was deleted this very second. :rofl:

I just didn’t have a clue as to what to say to those comments so I let smileys do the work…lol.

Seriously though, whatev’s, I killed time today, and I feel a LITTLE productive because of it.


#12

the only combo of giefs that gave me headache was hard trial 2 (gaddamn cancels)

seriously, what a waste of 3/4 your SC gauge


#13

nice thread nonetheless …should’ve put on top of the thread "if you can do this combo move on " then you wont get all these smart comments lol


#14

i enjoyed the history of the cps2 system. brings back memories. good writeup even if it is redundant.


#15

hey cool it’s not like there’s a combos thread that explains gief’s combos and how to do them or anything


#16

sigh

Should have edited in the bnb v2 combo.
Most people still use the v1 combo.

Oh well.

Topic gone to waste.


#17

Hey it’s not that it was useless at all, you spent a lot of time on it. Just, you should have put it in the thread that’s already dedicated to Gief’s combos and how to do them.


#18

funny part is greench could probably murder you all in sf iv…


#19

good player do not allways hafe good knowledge at all you can see pro player doing the most stupid things (not mistakes just stupid things they would not do if they know the gamemechanics)

here are a feaw excample

-executing combos with more jabs inside as needed into ultra wath greatly reduce the ultra damage and is not neccesary for hitconfirm or even execut combos in the first place when a stupid plain ultra would hit(mostly seen on rufus pros)
-using focusatack after dizzy +combo instead of youst start the combo (wath actualy deals more damage since focus reduce twice) best excample dizzy --focus – UAB

thats the most seen issues im encounter with pro players


#20

Lol, trust me, after writing that much I wouldn’t dream of “getting rid of it.” I saved the original text, so I could always “re edit” it, but I figured from the response that it would be better off forgetting the thread because it seemed that everyone thought it was rehashed info.

And you guys don’t get me wrong, I’m not offended by your responses, or, “sad” (Ha ha) at the initial response, I can take criticism and if it was honestly useless, then I had no problem removing it.

Anyways, you guys flip moods more than my girl :rofl: So I’ll repost it, and rename it, and if it dies, well it dies.

To Ultradavid: If it DOES mean anything, the sole reason I made the thread was to have an out, open, detailed (Though I guess it was TOO detailed) thread dedicated to the one combo that most people have issues with. I was very aware of your combo thread Ultradavid, and whatnot, but I figured people still ask questions about the combo, so they either aren’t seeing it in the combo thread, or whatnot.

Oh and Ultradavid, I know your first comment was sarcastic, but I respect you as a Zangief player, I’ve seen your vids and I think I’ve seen you play in person, and you’re a great Zangief player. I’m saying this because originally I was going to argue with you about why I made this thread regardless of your combo thread, but I didn’t want to give off the wrong attitude/impression, because like I said you know your stuff, and I respect you. :china:

TL;DR: I can take criticism, and I appreciate the initial feedback. I am also not afraid to remove pointless info if a majority of you guys truly feel that it is pointless. I want to help SRK out, not clutter it! Thanks again. :razz:

**Edit:**I wanted to add one more thing, that I specifically made it to help with this combo specifically, so adding in more versions of the jab/short xx EX Hand combo would make it even more of a post that really would have been better off in the combo thread. Which is why I ORIGINALLY made this a separate thread, because I figured I can focus on one thing rather than letting it sink in the other thread, and because I don’t want to sway from the original focus, which was ONE specific combo.